Is the RCC still manly?

[yatcup]

An interesting question (OP) and one that can be looked at several different ways. Manly or Heroic begs us to define the terms. The Church's authority is a rock and truth doesn't wane or wilt with age. But what does it really mean to be heroic? To defend? To attack? Because it seems that some people believe the Church to be playing possum and rolling over instead of taking a stand - there may be pockets of minor weaknesses, but I don't see any such problem when looking at the fundamentals overall.

It seems in all walks of life, there are those called to the front of the battlelines and those who are in the support units. Neither is more essential. And it further seems to be the case that there is a continual ebb and flow of what is needed more for the present time? Is it a time for direct apologetics? Or is it a time for mercy and peace-making?

In terms of social justice, I think of the issues of euthanasia, capital punishment, abortion, homosexuality, the body politic, the body economic, and I don't see any glaring weaknesses or backing-down in The Church.

Regarding soft pluralism - are you thinking of Philip Quinn's "Thinner Theologies"? or Hick's salvific efficacy pluralism? Because while there may be a tolerance and a compassion among the laity - there has not been a change in The Church's position regarding its exclusivity.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I'm not trying to offend. In fact I've been somewhat loosely rattling around the idea of "swimming the Tiber"

Theologically I have very little problem with Rome.

I find that more often where I really find myself pulling back and not liking what I see is in the realm of social issues, geo-politics, (as well as a few other things here and there).

One of the things I've always liked about the Church historically is that it was no-nonsense, tough, and willing to stand up to people. That sort of thing.

One of the things that has irritated me to no end about many of the western liberal Anglicans is that they basically come off as a bunch of wussified 'namby pambies' (using a phrase from my dad's vocab).

I see this as a general problem with all of western civilization. There is no moral courage left. No will to stand up and defend. No will to fend off the barbarians at the gates.

Of late I've begun to wonder is the Catholic Church in the same boat?

What are your thoughts, opinions, observations?

I think some Catholics might be like this, but not the Catholic Church as a whole and not Pope Benedict.... for example, the Church defends morality despite great opposition, unpopularity, etc.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

Some may have adopted soft pluralism; however the fact still remains [and the Holy Roman Catholic Church still affirms this by her doctrine today] that Christ Jesus established her alone for the salvation of souls and no others: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

Read this: NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

 

[JoabAnias]

Some may have adopted soft pluralism; however the fact still remains [and the Holy Roman Catholic Church still affirms this by her doctrine today] that Christ Jesus established her alone for the salvation of souls and no others: Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus.

Read this: NO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CHURCH

Do you realize that statement taken in a literal context contradicts the CCC and the pastoral guidence of Vatican II?

Dr. Art Sippo writes "[No salvation outside the Church] was reiterated at Vatican II in Lumen Gentium Paragraph 14. Now formal membership is the ordinary means of salvation, but the Church has always accepted that there can be extenuating circumstances and that one may be related to the Catholic Church less formally [this will include many Christians of other denominations].

Technically, all validly baptized persons are members of the Catholic Church."
Also some honest seekers, who through no fault of their own, did not learn about the the Catholic Church will be saved.

Dogmas of the Catholic Church - Catholic Apologetics .
Is originally from Otto's Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma​

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, that are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice, and there shall be one fold and one shepherd.

 

[Virgil the Roman]

The Link I provided to Father Mueller's work, "The Catholic Dogma" has the Imprimatur of the Church. I am not contradicting the Church, only so her teaching.

Do you realise that I quote a dogma? And that dogmata, according to the Church admit no further interpretation from the Church; doctrine may, dogmata: no. For this is what Holy Mother Church has said.

Invincible Ignorance is not salvific. Merely one cannot be damned for being "invincibly ignorant;" neither can invincible ignorance "save," for it cannot. We saved by the grace of God. For at least, we must have perfect contrition, divine faith, a desire to know and please God in order to be saved and be in a state of Grace.

Joab read the work. Father Mueller does a pretty thorough job explaining the Church on EENS.

 

[JoabAnias]

The Link I provided to Father Mueller's work, "The Catholic Dogma" has the Imprimatur of the Church. I am not contradicting the Church, only so her teaching.


Invincible Ignorance is not salvific. Merely one cannot be damned for being "invincibly ignorant;" neither can invincible ignorance "save," for it cannot. We saved by the grace of God. For at least, we must have perfect contrition, divine faith, a desire to know and please God in order to be saved and be in a state of Grace.

Joab read the work. Father Mueller does a pretty thorough job explaining the Church on EENS.

I'm not sure who your replying to there but it wasn't me who you quoted though you did address me in the last sentence.

None of that answers my question, I'll ask again:

Do you realize that statement of "outside the church there is no salvation" when taken in a literal context without the nuances of what it means exactly contradicts the CCC and the pastoral guidance of Vatican II?


Whenever I see anyone use that term out of context it doesn't sound like they are quite grasping the understanding of it.

As far as invincible ignorance;
I have a step daughter that has Downs Syndrome. I can tell you its not for us to judge what degree of contrition anyone is capable of. Some people have no rational faculty of quilt. This is why approaching all things with the humility that God alone can judge the heart is so important.

 

[GrannieAnnie]

MANLY.....well when you look at all the lace, "dresses" and jewellery they wear.....it could make one wonder !!!!!

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

Jewelry? Gold Lace vestments sure but who wears jewelry? is this some mosarabic rite thing?

 

[Virgil the Roman]

God judges alone Joab. I was merely posting Catholic belief. I try my best to post solid, Catholic links and such. I will not be wishy-washy; I know how ecumaniacal you are on OBOB, your choice...

Kyrie Eleison....

I am not sure what you are getting at, other than making your post, very personal and utilising emotionalistic appeal [I've nothing against you or your family].


I am going to leave your posts [and this thread] be, as I do not wish to say anything that, in imprudence, might be potentially misconstrued.

Ciao.
God Bless.
-Virgil the Roman

 

[JoabAnias]

I am not sure what you are getting at, other than making your post, very personal and utilising emotionalistic appeal [I've nothing against you or your family].

I have a point I'm trying to get at with the question;

"Do you realize that statement of "outside the church there is no salvation" when taken in a literal context without the nuances of what it means exactly contradicts the CCC and the pastoral guidance of Vatican II?"

and that is that if we take older teachings like in the council of Trent for example,
and although they are very true,
present them as in the time they came about,
and taken literally without the synthesis of the whole teaching of the Church that came after,
they can be misconstrued with the wrong understanding without the nuances that explain them.

Nothing more.

Does that make more sense put that way?

If you want some examples of what I mean, read some of the council of Trent and then read or cross reference some of the documents of Vatican I or II.

You should see what I mean.

Thats why I said; "literal context without the nuances"

because older teachings are often expounded on and reiterated with greater understanding down through time in development of doctrine.

See what I mean?

Though the earlier teachings are true, subsequent understandings for the time make them better understood and that is why much or Trent must be interpreted in light of Vatican II.

None of this is meant to be personal or emotional by me bro, its aimed at understanding and spiritual growth.

Thanks and God bless you too.

 

[GrannieAnnie]

Jewelry? Gold Lace vestments sure but who wears jewelry? is this some mosarabic rite thing?

A close relative of mine works for the Arch Bishop of an Australian state and he is amazed at the amount of "lace" they want on their vestments, and the different precious stones they have in rings and on their mitres and on the vessels. They have more "bling" than I'll ever have.

 

[2WhomShallWeGo]

A close relative of mine works for the Arch Bishop of an Australian state and he is amazed at the amount of "lace" they want on their vestments, and the different precious stones they have in rings and on their mitres and on the vessels. They have more "bling" than I'll ever have.

Yah ok rings of office and mitre. For a second I thought we were talking earrings or some such. Lace vestments don't freak me either. I've worn lace surplices on the altar for vespers and compline. I suppose some would think choir robes are feminine too but in their context they make sense just like the vestments. it certainly wouldn't be respectful for a priest to say mass in a pants suit or have the chalice made out of something from the pottery barn.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

The Church is the Bride, and also the embodiment of the Lord's Authority.

She directs the world [her faithful] with strength and fortitude. She remains unchanging and staunch in matters of theology.
Referred to as a 'she' because she is the Bride.
That's not to say the Church will accept women priests, or change on contraception, or abortion, or what is truth vs heresy. [etc]

She has a long history of combating heresy and the Traditions are marked for all time.

the church will never change its position on women priests or abortion. As with abortion it says "this teaching cannot be changed and remains unchangeable"


The only thing I could think of is if a Hans Kung type becomes an anti-pope. But even with anti-popes they cannot change what is ex-cathedra.

The liberals in the Church wanna change it into another Babylonian anarchy with no directive towards morals or authority. They think they can push darkness in with light and call it light. Just look what happens when a liberal gets authority or a director position within a Catholic Church, or a group like with Dignity USA, they take and push their views onto the Church without the bishop knowing

Here are Catholic Churches where this has happened, and this is JUST New York..

Holy Name of Jesus New York Roman Catholic St. Francis Xavier New York Roman Catholic St. Francis of Assisi New York Roman Catholic St. Joseph's, Greenwich Village New York Roman Catholic St. Malachy New York Roman Catholic St. Paul the Apostle New York Roman Catholic

Church of the Blessed Sacrament Rochester Roman Catholic Corpus Christi / Spiritus Christi Rochester Roman Catholic Dignity-Integrity/Rochester Rochester Roman Catholic (Dignity), Episcopal St. John the Evangelist (Humbolt St.) Rochester Roman Catholic St. Mary's Downtown Rochester Roman Catholic St. Monica Rochester Roman Catholic
Church of the Blessed Sacrament Rochester Roman Catholic Corpus Christi / Spiritus Christi Rochester Roman Catholic Dignity-Integrity/Rochester Rochester Roman Catholic (Dignity), Episcopal St. John the Evangelist (Humbolt St.) Rochester Roman Catholic St. Mary's Downtown Rochester Roman Catholic St. Monica Rochester Roman Catholic


In fact it has gotten so bad that gaychurch.org will not provide a full list of their Roman Catholic Churches in one page, he writes this Welcoming Roman Catholic Churches (Catholic)
Unfortunately I cannot list my sources for welcoming Roman Catholic churches. After doing some investigative work it appears that there is a major 'witch' hunt going on within the Catholic church to weed out "welcoming" churches, priests and nuns. Rather than list my sources, many of which have now buried their welcoming lists deep within their web sites. I have instead elected to simply list the welcoming parishes in the directory and give no 'proof' as to where this information has come from. This gives 'plausible deniability' to the affected parishes if they should be attacked by the more conservative elements within their church. Being raised Catholic in the Jesuit tradition this saddens me to no end and I pray a day may come when hiding and protecting our brothers and sisters in the ministry is no longer necessary.

Note: As far as we are aware very few Catholic churches are welcoming.