Is the Rapture Deception?

[BibleloverBill]

I disagree obviously .

My posts are mostly facts. Most spiritual, media, and political opinions are not pleasing to God.

 

[BibleloverBill]

1Th 4:17 is the only scripture that uses the word rapture (the Greek word for rapture because it was written in Greek)

So, the bible teaches a rapture just not a pre-trib rapture as the verse places the rapture after the second coming which only happens when the trib has ended.

What frustrates me is so many times, doctrine is just based on 1 verse or 1 small passage instead a compilation of very related verses and passages.

 

[ewq1938]

Really? Which greek word from that verse means “rapture@?

caught up is the word "harpazo".

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up HARPAZO/RAPTURE together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

When this verse was translated into Latin from Greek, the Greek word "harpazo" was replaced by the the Latin verb rapio meaning "to catch up" or "take away" (the Latin noun "raptus" "a carrying off"). The Latin Vulgate translates the Greek as rapiemur. In Middle French "rapiemur" is "rapture" meaning ("to carry away") which is the same meaning as Rapture in English. So while the English word RAPTURE is not in scripture the Greek word HARPAZO is in scripture and it is the origin of the word rapture. So, yes, a rapture is very biblical. A pre-trib rapture is not biblical because Paul places the rapture after the tribulation and second coming and after the resurrection of the dead.

 

[BibleloverBill]

That's interesting and new to me.

But what about the Son of Man coming in the clouds? In the clouds is more specific than just meeting him 'in the air.'

'…29Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’ 30At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear inheaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.They will see the Son of Man coming on the cloudsof heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.… 'Matthew 24

And some say that happened in 70 AD. But I have not seen any evidence of such. I know God made it so that the Jews had 2 years to escape Jerusalem before the Romans came in the city to destroy it.

 

[ewq1938]

What frustrates me is so many times, doctrine is just based on 1 verse or 1 small passage instead a compilation of very related verses and passages.

In this case the doctrine of when the rapture occurs is based on the actual verses that speak of the timing. It matters not that it only takes 3 verses to establish when the rapture happens. In these three verses is the ONLY time the word rapture is used in the entirety of scripture regarding the actual future rapture and so when speaking of the timing of the rapture these verses take the utmost priority.

 

[BibleloverBill]

You are going out of order with the events.
This is definitely probably the most controversial topic of all Scripture.
It appears (for the most part) we agree about the events, but not the timing.

***But the timing is very important, but it is not a Salvation of Soul issue. The most important thing is to have the right Faith/Trust in God and His Word understanding the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[ewq1938]

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The word "meet" has a certain and special meaning:


NT:529
apantesis (ap-an'-tay-sis); from NT:528; a (friendly) encounter:


KJV - meet.



But what could this "friendly encounter" mean exactly? The word is only used 4 times in all of scripture so lets look at the word used in context to fully understand it's meaning and why it's being used:




Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.


This is a parable that teaches us about the second coming of Christ. Note that the virgins are "going forth" to meet with the bridegroom meaning they do not stay put but actively "go forth" to meet him.


Matthew 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Matthew 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Matthew 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Matthew 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.


This is the second time the word is being used and again it's specifically about going forth to meet someone. They do not wait for him to come all the way to them but meet him while he is on his way. It is this that is incredibly important.


Matthew 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Matthew 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Matthew 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.


The marriage is held there! He doesn't come to them and take them back to where he came from. They go out to meet him as he is coming, and then return with him back to where they were!


Matthew 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Matthew 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.


This is the "coming" of Christ and this describes the rapture perfectly.


1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Just as the church will go up to the clouds and meet Christ, so too will they accompany him back to the earth to where the marriage shall be held just as the parable describes.


This is the part that is so badly misunderstood about the rapture. Never is it described as Jesus coming part of the way to the earth, rapturing his church and then returning back to where he started in heaven. It is always Jesus leaving heaven, rapturing the church somewhere in mid point, and then continuing to return to the earth with his new bride, the church. The church essentially goes forth to meet Christ in the clouds, a "friendly encounter", and comes with him back to where they were which is the earth.



Acts 28:14 Where we found brethren, and were desired to tarry with them seven days: and so we went toward Rome.
Acts 28:15 And from thence, when the brethren heard of us, they came to meet us as far as Appii forum, and The three taverns: whom when Paul saw, he thanked God, and took courage.
Acts 28:16 And when we came to Rome, the centurion delivered the prisoners to the captain of the guard: but Paul was suffered to dwell by himself with a soldier that kept him.


Here is the same. When these people hear that Paul is arriving they do not wait for him to arrive but go forth to meet him and then accompany him back to their place, which was his destination all along. He does not meet them and take them back to where he came from! Neither does Jesus at the rapture.

 

[food4thought]

The trib is about Satan's wrath on Christians. God's wrath comes after the trib to punish the wicked world.

I have few issues with the pre-wrath view. I would point out that Revelation 6:12-17 depicts God's wrath before the trumpet judgments. That is the only problem Biblically that comes to my mind with the pre-wrath view.

 

[ewq1938]

I have few issues with the pre-wrath view. I would point out that Revelation 6:12-17 depicts God's wrath before the trumpet judgments. That is the only problem Biblically that comes to my mind with the pre-wrath view.

That passage is just a glimpse of what happens in the 7th trump. Each seal shows something from the trumpets. So, it's not that any of God's wrath precedes the trumps, we just get a glimpse of what is to come.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Matthew 24:36-44
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Yeah. That's called the Rapture. Notice how it says things are going to be like they were when the flood came... eating, drinking, marrying, laughter etc... things clearly won't be like that during the Tribulation scripture and Jesus talks about... during the tribulation it will be horror after horror, trouble after trouble; hell on earth.

Thus it has to be before the tribulation.

But if you won't hear that, and you probably won't, have fun being blind.

I suppose if you ignore Paul writings and Jesus' teaching I may agree with you.

1Th 4:16.17 the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Matt 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Since God divinely spoke it through the authors of the canon of scripture :]. Revelation explains itself if taken as it is. We get in trouble when we try to add to or take away.

There is a rapture, but it is undeniably post tribulation.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Lots of things used to be teachings of Christianity, until Pagan religion mixed in with the Church via Roman Catholicism. Teachings were lost, customs.

Nothing is ever lost. Unless you plan on becoming Gnostic. That is the only early Christian tradition we know very little about, and thankfully so.

 

[CodyFaith]

Nothing is ever lost. Unless you plan on becoming Gnostic. That is the only early Christian tradition we know very little about, and thankfully so.

Yeah... when saints start praying to Mary and believing they can lose their salvation, and believe it's good to pay money to recieve atonement for sins, or go on crusade missions to repent instead of just actually confessing sins to God... yeah... pretty sure something's lost there. Not really getting the full picture if you catch my drift.

I do find a 21 year old rating my post Funny in a goading way amusing though. So thanks for that.

 

[gordonhooker]

Yeah... when saints start praying to Mary and believing they can lose their salvation, and believe it's good to pay money to recieve atonement for sins, or go on crusade missions to repent instead of just actually confessing sins to God... yeah... pretty sure something's lost there. Not really getting the full picture if you catch my drift.

I do find a 21 year old rating my post Funny in a goading way amusing though. So thanks for that.

Isn’t this post an example of the pot calling the kettle black? Is it really necessary to take a swipe at Roman Catholicism simply because you do not agree or understand RC doctrine. I don’t agree with them on some points of doctrine but I don’t rubbish them for their beliefs either.

 

[CodyFaith]

Isn’t this post an example of the pot calling the kettle black? Is it really necessary to take a swipe at Roman Catholicism simply because you do not agree or understand RC doctrine. I don’t agree with them on some points of doctrine but I don’t rubbish them for their beliefs either.

If it were the pot calling the kettle black, this would mean my theology were incorrect. And while I admit I may be wrong on smaller points here or there, my main theologies are not.
My "swipe" at RC was not a swipe at all, but an in context discussion originally. I have many RC family and friends. The fact that they were and are in error remains true however, but that was not the main reason for my post. The original poster I addressed had made an assertion that because the rapture had not been a main teaching of Christianity for the length of Christianity itself, that somehow proved it was not a valid doctrine. And I contextually demonstrated that the RC church taught false doctrine for centuries, and since the majority of church history (especially in the west) is RC, it shows that common held or withheld doctrine does not make or break what is true doctrinally.

But now all this is getting both off topic, and personal. Not going to reply to anything regarding RC, not because I care about church toleration conformism, but because it's offtopic. If you feel you are in a position to judge me, feel free to pm me.

 

[gordonhooker]

I do find a 21 year old rating my post Funny in a goading way amusing though. So thanks for that.

If it were the pot calling the kettle black, this would mean my theology were incorrect. And while I admit I may be wrong on smaller points here or there, my main theologies are not.
My "swipe" at RC was not a swipe at all, but an in context discussion originally. I have many RC family and friends. The fact that they were and are in error remains true however, but that was not the main reason for my post. The original poster I addressed had made an assertion that because the rapture had not been a main teaching of Christianity for the length of Christianity itself, that somehow proved it was not a valid doctrine. And I contextually demonstrated that the RC church taught false doctrine for centuries, and since the majority of church history (especially in the west) is RC, it shows that common held or withheld doctrine does not make or break what is true doctrinally.

But now all this is getting both off topic, and personal. Not going to reply to anything regarding RC, not because I care about church toleration conformism, but because it's offtopic. If you feel you are in a position to judge me, feel free to pm me.

It sounded like a swipe to me and also condescending. As I said your understanding of RC doctrine maybe just a tad lacking. I am not a RC but I do understand why they believe some of the things they believe.

As far as getting personal goes I would suggest that your comment about a 21 year blaaahblaaaaah was directed and personal toward the 21 year old you referred to in the post I responded to.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Yeah... when saints start praying to Mary and believing they can lose their salvation, and believe it's good to pay money to recieve atonement for sins, or go on crusade missions to repent instead of just actually confessing sins to God... yeah... pretty sure something's lost there. Not really getting the full picture if you catch my drift.

I do find a 21 year old rating my post Funny in a goading way amusing though. So thanks for that.

What on earth my age has to do with it.

Also the crusades didn't happen until after the great schism so there is a whole debate about whether the Roman Catholic Church was even a legitimate church after they broke off from the Orthodox Church. Loss of salvation is Biblical, and asking for the Mother of God's intercession is completely fine and visibly works. Literally millions of stories of people around the world receiving aid from the Mother of God so I recommend you actually look into Maritology and what traditional church's believe about her. I used to be a Baptist seminarian if that's any perspective.

Sorry I just find these statements I see people make without any evidence and act like they are true funny

 

[ItIsFinished!]

My posts are mostly facts. Most spiritual, media, and political opinions are not pleasing to God.

I present the Word of God within its context not media opinions.
As far as politic goes there will be opinions .
I base my political views on The Word of God so therefore I doubt it is displeasing to God.

OT: No, the teaching of the removal (Rapture) of the Church (Bride of Christ) absolutely in no way is deception , but rather Scriptural.

 

[Dkh587]

Yes. The wicked are the ones who are taken away. The righteous will remain on the earth with the Messiah.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Yes. The wicked are the ones who are taken away. The righteous will remain on the earth with the Messiah.

Are you referring to The Second Coming of Christ and The Parable of the Wheat and Tares?

 

[expos4ever]

Except when Jesus said it would happen.

But yeah. Besides then.

And when, precisely was that?

I politely suggest that the rapture theology is based on ignorance of the Old Testament as well as the culture in which Scripture was written. Prime example: there is dramatic and clear Biblical precedent for the “coming on the clouds” image as denoting Jesus’ UPWARD ascent in vindication after the cross and not a downward descent to gather believers. Please consult Daniel 7.