Is the Rapture Deception?

[Original Happy Camper]

The 1,000 year reign is symbolism. Some in the early church, like the Montanists, speculated about how plants would grow during the millenium and vain speculations like that, but most of the Church interpreted that imagery symbolically. Because chiliasm lead to fanaticism and abandoning worldly life (as some of the pastoral epistles seem to be struggling with, people were quitting their jobs and loafing about in expectation of the second coming).

Christ's kingdom will not end, as our creed states, because Christ's kingdom is in the human heart. How exactly the world will end is something the Scriptures gives us only vague impressions. It has no bearing on our salvation, since the departed saints live in perfect blessedness in communion with God and each other, which is the Christian hope as my tradition understands it.

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

 

[BibleloverBill]

I suppose if you ignore Paul writings and Jesus' teaching I may agree with you.

1Th 4:16.17 the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Matt 24:29-31
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

*** 1 Corinthians 15:

51 Take notice!
I tell you a mystery
(a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God).
We shall not all fall asleep [in death],
but we shall all be changed (transformed)
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call.
For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable
(free and immune from decay),
and we shall be changed (transformed).
53 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature,
and this mortal must put on immortality (freedom from death).
54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable
and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death,
then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says,
“Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished forever)
in and unto victory.
55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
56 Now sin is the sting of death,
and sin exercises its power upon the soul through the abuse of the Law.

And where are trumpets mentioned in Revelation?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

The "rapture" is an idea that has only been around for around 150 years. It has never been a teaching of Christianity.

False. Paul wrote about it

The fact that no-one one Earth ever heard of such an idea until a couple of hundred years ago makes it obvious that it was never part of original Christianity, and is one of the many modern traditions of men that have come out of Protestantism.

The Apostle Paul wrote about the removal of the Church (AKA the Rapture) in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1st Corinthians 15:51-52.
Many have taught about this Scriptural teaching during the early Church till present.
This is not some new teaching that just came around the last couple hundred years.
And, it will be a pre-trib removal of the Church before divine judgment comes down upon a highly rebellious and rejecting world who has reached its peak of decadence and depravity.

The Groom (Jesus Christ) will remove the Bride (The Church) before His wrath and devine judgment is unleashed.

It truly is a blessing to be part of the Church.
Very quite humbling and awesome.

All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

 

[Dave L]

If flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, then only saints in glorified bodies would populate the 1000 year reign of Christ in his earthly millennial kingdom if it were true.

And it would be many of these whom Satan would rally against the rest of the glorified saints. When he is loosed at the close of the millennium.

Also “Jesus replied, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter his mother’s womb and be born a second time, can he?” Jesus answered, “I tell you the solemn truth, unless a person is born of water and spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3–5)

Verifying that only the saved would occupy a physical millennium if it ever were to exist.

 

[BibleloverBill]

See the church in Philadelphia that Jesus promised would be removed and spared tribulation...

No where does it say in the Bible that all Christians are part of that church.
Revelation 2:
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere,
I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon all the World,
to test them who dwell upon the Earth.

That does not say or indicate a rapture. God now protects believers from many testings and trials throughout the World. But He knows how much we can each handle (1 Corinthians 10:13), so He even allows death to come to true Christians.

 

[BibleloverBill]

False. Paul wrote about it

The Apostle Paul wrote about the removal of the Church (AKA the Rapture) in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1st Corinthians 15:51-52.
Many have taught about this Scriptural teaching during the early Church till present.
This is not some new teaching that just came around the last couple hundred years.
And, it will be a pre-trib removal of the Church before divine judgment comes down upon a highly rebellious and rejecting world who has reached its peak of decadence and depravity.

The Groom (Jesus Christ) will remove the Bride (The Church) before His wrath and devine judgment is unleashed.

It truly is a blessing to be part of the Church.
Very quite humbling and awesome.

All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

1 Corinthians 15:
51 Take notice!
I tell you a mystery
(a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God).
We shall not all fall asleep [in death],
but we shall all be changed (transformed)
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call.
For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable
(free and immune from decay),
and we shall be changed (transformed).
53 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature,
and this mortal must put on immortality (freedom from death).
54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable
and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death,
then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says,
“Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished forever)
in and unto victory.
55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
56 Now sin is the sting of death,
and sin exercises its power upon the soul through the abuse of the Law.

And where are trumpets mentioned in Revelation?

 

[HTacianas]

False. Paul wrote about it

The Apostle Paul wrote about the removal of the Church (AKA the Rapture) in 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17 and 1st Corinthians 15:51-52.
Many have taught about this Scriptural teaching during the early Church till present.
This is not some new teaching that just came around the last couple hundred years.
And, it will be a pre-trib removal of the Church before divine judgment comes down upon a highly rebellious and rejecting world who has reached its peak of decadence and depravity.

The Groom (Jesus Christ) will remove the Bride (The Church) before His wrath and devine judgment is unleashed.

It truly is a blessing to be part of the Church.
Very quite humbling and awesome.

All glory be to God now and forever!
⚘

Please provide us with quotes from any early Christian who taught that.

 

[eleos1954]

All throughout the prophets, we have them warning God's children to hide and keep themselves shut up until the trouble passes.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isa 24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is
done.

(Basically it's saying that the world will have few people left in it, because of the great destruction God will cause to be upon the earth in the last days, because of their transgressions. Really read this entire chapter, because all of it applies to what I'm talking about, I just didn't want to link an entire chapter in here)

I feel that the idea of the rapture, is a deception given to us by the enemy, because when the world is destroyed due to our transgressions and unholiness, those believing in and waiting on the rapture will not know what's going on. They would've been expecting to be taken out before these things happen, and then their faith will fail them, because they weren't prepared to have to go through this time of trouble. We even have the words of our Savior describing that time. His children are wheat, and the devil's children are tares.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
Mat 13:42 and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 THEN the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Let the person who has ears listen!”

Mat 13:49 That is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, cull out the evil people FROM AMONG the righteous ones,
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here we see Jesus saying that His chosen, will still be on earth. That the unrighteous will be taken from among them. So we see that, for example, the verse where two will be in a field, one taken the other left, you want to be the one that is left. You don't want to be taken, because to be taken, means you're not a wheat. Because as Matt 13:30 says, tares will be taken first, not wheat.

True ... all will go through the great tribulation, but it will be cut short.

Mark 13

19For in those days there will be tribulation unmatched from the beginning of God’s creation until now, and never to be seen again. 20If the Lord had not shortened those days, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom He has chosen, He has shortened them.

After the last "shorten day" of the tribulation. Is the 1st resurrection.

The separation of the wheat and the tares happen at the 1st resurrection. The wheat (the saved) are taken to be with the Lord at that time.

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The unsaved living at the time are destroyed by His Brightness (at the same time of the 1st resurrection) and they lay dead upon the earth. Them and the unsaved dead await the 2nd resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 2

8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[BibleloverBill]

But it kick started the theory put forth by the Jesuit Ribera

and Finnis Jennings Dake of the Dake Bible

He is also the author of the following:
1-- New Testament commandments in groups with verses
Box

 

[bcbsr]

*** 1 Corinthians 15:

51 Take notice!
I tell you a mystery
(a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God).
We shall not all fall asleep [in death],
but we shall all be changed (transformed)
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call.
For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable
(free and immune from decay),
and we shall be changed (transformed).
53 For this perishable part of us must put on the imperishable nature,
and this mortal must put on immortality (freedom from death).
54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable
and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death,
then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says,
“Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished forever)
in and unto victory.
55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?”
56 Now sin is the sting of death,
and sin exercises its power upon the soul through the abuse of the Law.

And where are trumpets mentioned in Revelation?

Prior to the 7 plagues. So post-trib, pre-wrath rapture.

For details see my study on Revelation

 

[BibleloverBill]

There will be a time of suffering caused by the wicked one, but then the wicked ones will be destroyed by the wrath. This is what Jesus was referring to in the parable of the harvest. His wrath will cause the wicked to be destroyed, but, they (the tares) will be taken first. The wheat, (His children) will be kept safely to be stored up in His store house.

After the tribulation, and after His wrath, we will be brought to His storehouses. We will once again be brought back to Him, for Him to reign on earth.

True Christians will be spared from the wrath of God against the wicked, but as you indicate they are not spared from tribulation by the wicked. And there will be World-wide tribulation before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. And that can be caused by even a small number of horrible happenings which would cause chaos. Like is mentioned in Revelation when it states that one third of the population will be killed and then soon after another third will be killed, meaning one half of the World's population destroyed in a short time.
Revelation 9:
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded,
and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden Altar which is before God,
14 saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet,
“Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.”
15 And the four angels were loosed, who had been prepared for
an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year,
for to slay the third part of humankind.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand;
and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision,
and those who sat on them, having breastplates of fire, of jacinth, and brimstone;
and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions;
and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of humankind killed
by the fire, by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which came out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails,
for their tails were like to serpents having heads,
and with them they do hurt.
20 And the rest of the humankind who were not killed by these plagues
yet repented not of the works of their hands
that they should not worship
devils, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood,
which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries,
or their fornication, or their thefts.

 

[Rubiks]

Then why is the church not mentioned after chapter four of revelation until the end of Revelation? It is because the church left, The Bridegroom came for His bride and we are "caught up" To meet Him in the air.

The word that is translated "air" refers to the visible, lower part of the atmosphere and is also a symbol of power (See Daniel chapter 7). The word that is translated "heaven" refers the upper, invisible part of the atmosphere (at least according to the cosmological beliefs at the time) and refers to the abode of God. With the exception of the accounts Enoch and Elijah, "Heaven" is never understood to be an eternal place of comfort. When most Christian mention "Heaven," they are referring to the Kingdom of God, which is the eternal reign of God on earth.

Strong's Greek: 3772. οὐρανός (ouranos) -- heaven
Strong's Greek: 109. ἀήρ (aér) -- air

 

[RedRider]

All I know is that Jesus begged God not to rapture anyone out in John 17:15 t but to be with them thru it.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Seems kind of odd that Jesus would do what he begged God not to do.

Besides, with all the people who are calling themselves Christian while supporting the Beast of the Revelation today, it makes sense that the first purge will be of the church.

 

[Berean Tim]

The Rapture, as a protestant tradition, teaches that Jesus will return in secret and remove all Christians from the earth prior to any tribulation. That is the subject of this thread.

Not all of us believe in a secret Rapture. I'm PreWrath I believe everyone will know

 

[Oldmantook]

All throughout the prophets, we have them warning God's children to hide and keep themselves shut up until the trouble passes.

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
Isa 26:21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Isa 24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with the taker of usury, so with the giver of usury to him.
Isa 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
Isa 24:4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
Isa 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
Isa 24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, there shall be as the shaking of an olive tree, and as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is
done.

(Basically it's saying that the world will have few people left in it, because of the great destruction God will cause to be upon the earth in the last days, because of their transgressions. Really read this entire chapter, because all of it applies to what I'm talking about, I just didn't want to link an entire chapter in here)

I feel that the idea of the rapture, is a deception given to us by the enemy, because when the world is destroyed due to our transgressions and unholiness, those believing in and waiting on the rapture will not know what's going on. They would've been expecting to be taken out before these things happen, and then their faith will fail them, because they weren't prepared to have to go through this time of trouble. We even have the words of our Savior describing that time. His children are wheat, and the devil's children are tares.

Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together FIRST the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mat 13:40 Just as weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so it will be at end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather from his kingdom everything that causes others to sin and those who practice lawlessness
Mat 13:42 and they will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 THEN the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father's kingdom. Let the person who has ears listen!”

Mat 13:49 That is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, cull out the evil people FROM AMONG the righteous ones,
Mat 13:50 and will throw them into a blazing furnace. In that place there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Here we see Jesus saying that His chosen, will still be on earth. That the unrighteous will be taken from among them. So we see that, for example, the verse where two will be in a field, one taken the other left, you want to be the one that is left. You don't want to be taken, because to be taken, means you're not a wheat. Because as Matt 13:30 says, tares will be taken first, not wheat.

I think the words of Jesus himself trumps all eschatological interpretations. Jesus never stated that he will return twice - first at the rapture and then another time at his second coming. Secondly, he never stated that he will come as a thief (rapture) before the tribulation. Instead he stated the exact opposite. Jesus stated that he will come as a thief in the context of the battle of Armageddon (post-trib):
15“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.” 16Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Rev 16:15-16
The pre-trib rapture is deception according to Jesus' own teaching. The "rapture" is the Second Coming - one event; not two.

 

[food4thought]

First, let me say that there should be no question whether there will be a rapture. Regardless of what one calls it, this passage makes it clear the event will take place:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. (16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The only question, then, should be the timing of the event, and that is fine to debate. I am indebted to other teachers (particularly Dr. Tony Garland) for these points, obviously, but that should not detract from whether they are valid points or not.

1) The doctrine of the immanent return of Christ. If the rapture does not happen pre-trib, then there are many events which must take place before the return of Jesus Christ.

2) Populating the Millennial Kingdom: From many passages in the Old Testament, we understand that sinners will inhabit the millennial kingdom. The kingdom is ushered in at the return of Jesus (Matthew 19:28; Matthew 25:31; Revelation 20:4). The sinners who enter the kingdom are believers who survive the Tribulation and produce offspring who eventually reject the rule of Christ (Revelation 20:7-9). If the Rapture is after the Tribulation, then where do these people in unglorified bodies come from? If all believers are caught up to meet Christ in the air at the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and are changed (1 Corinthians 15:52) and only believers enter the kingdom (Matthew 25:34 cf. Matthew 25:46), whence the people producing children in the millennium (Isaiah 65:20)? Clearly, the believers at Christ's return did not participate in the Rapture or they would have glorified bodies and would be incapable of sin or reproduction. If the Rapture occurs at the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation (some sort of glorified "U-turn in the sky"), then there are no human beings in natural bodies to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

3) Escaping God's Wrath: Numerous passages indicate that believer's will not be subject to God's wrath (Luke 21:36; Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 3:10). Yet Scripture also identifies the Tribulation as a special time in history connected with an intense outpouring of God's wrath upon those who dwell on the earth (Revelation 6:16, 17; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 14:8, 10, 19; Revelation 15:1, 7; Revelation 16:1, 17, 19; Revelation 19:15). Although believers have eternal life (past tense) when we believe, we will be saved (future tense) from wrath through Him (Romans 5:9). This salvation from wrath speaks of a future time of wrath which believers will not experience. It is a time period which we will not be present to witness—we are saved, not just from the wrath, but from the very hour of testing of the earth dwellers during the Tribulation (Revelation 3:10).

4) Contrasting Second Coming Passages: When we look at various Second Coming passages, we notice apparent distinctions. In some passages, Christ comes in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). In other passages, He comes to the earth (Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11). In some passages tribulation begins (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9). In others, the millennial kingdom is ushered in (Revelation 20:1-7). In some passages, signs precede His coming (Luke 21:11,15). In other passages, no signs precede His arrival (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3). How do we put all these passages together if they describe one and the same event? It is the same puzzle that the Jews faced attempting to reconcile Old Testament passages which speak of a victorious king (Psalms 2) and a suffering servant (Isaiah 53). How do we reconcile these tensions in the Old Testament passages? We understand that they describe different Comings of our Lord: to suffer and die at His first coming, but to rule supreme at His Second Coming. Similarly, New Testament "Coming" passages with consistent contrasts are describing two different events: the Rapture of the Church—when He comes for His own versus the Second Coming in judgement upon an unbelieving and rejecting world. If we ignore this distinction, nothing but confusion will result.


I could add more, but this will suffice for now.

 

[bcbsr]

52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call.
For a trumpet will sound, and the dead in Christ will be raised imperishable
(free and immune from decay),
and we shall be changed (transformed).

NT-22-- Revelation-- 4th Edition in ETRSF (17 pgs.)-- Box

That's right, the 7th Trumpet, which occurs prior to the bowls of wrath.

 

[Richard Ruhling]

A pre-tribulation rapture is not supported by Scripture which teaches that "we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom," Acts 14:22
The rapture occurs "at the last trumpet," 1Cor 15:52 and there are SEVEN trumpets preceded by an earthquake in Rev 8:5. It will be big enough that we may not need to read about it and it initiates "the day of the Lord"--the end-time period for America. It is the "sudden destruction that comes when they say 'Peace and safety' (the UN theme last year had those words).
The pre-trib rapture is a misunderstanding of the wedding parables.

 

[Dave L]

First, let me say that there should be no question whether there will be a rapture. Regardless of what one calls it, this passage makes it clear the event will take place:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 NKJV But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (15) For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. (16) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. (18) Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The only question, then, should be the timing of the event, and that is fine to debate. I am indebted to other teachers (particularly Dr. Tony Garland) for these points, obviously, but that should not detract from whether they are valid points or not.

1) The doctrine of the immanent return of Christ. If the rapture does not happen pre-trib, then there are many events which must take place before the return of Jesus Christ.

2) Populating the Millennial Kingdom: From many passages in the Old Testament, we understand that sinners will inhabit the millennial kingdom. The kingdom is ushered in at the return of Jesus (Matthew 19:28; Matthew 25:31; Revelation 20:4). The sinners who enter the kingdom are believers who survive the Tribulation and produce offspring who eventually reject the rule of Christ (Revelation 20:7-9). If the Rapture is after the Tribulation, then where do these people in unglorified bodies come from? If all believers are caught up to meet Christ in the air at the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and are changed (1 Corinthians 15:52) and only believers enter the kingdom (Matthew 25:34 cf. Matthew 25:46), whence the people producing children in the millennium (Isaiah 65:20)? Clearly, the believers at Christ's return did not participate in the Rapture or they would have glorified bodies and would be incapable of sin or reproduction. If the Rapture occurs at the Second Coming at the end of the Tribulation (some sort of glorified "U-turn in the sky"), then there are no human beings in natural bodies to populate the Millennial Kingdom.

3) Escaping God's Wrath: Numerous passages indicate that believer's will not be subject to God's wrath (Luke 21:36; Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Revelation 3:10). Yet Scripture also identifies the Tribulation as a special time in history connected with an intense outpouring of God's wrath upon those who dwell on the earth (Revelation 6:16, 17; Revelation 11:18; Revelation 14:8, 10, 19; Revelation 15:1, 7; Revelation 16:1, 17, 19; Revelation 19:15). Although believers have eternal life (past tense) when we believe, we will be saved (future tense) from wrath through Him (Romans 5:9). This salvation from wrath speaks of a future time of wrath which believers will not experience. It is a time period which we will not be present to witness—we are saved, not just from the wrath, but from the very hour of testing of the earth dwellers during the Tribulation (Revelation 3:10).

4) Contrasting Second Coming Passages: When we look at various Second Coming passages, we notice apparent distinctions. In some passages, Christ comes in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). In other passages, He comes to the earth (Zechariah 14:4; Acts 1:11). In some passages tribulation begins (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9). In others, the millennial kingdom is ushered in (Revelation 20:1-7). In some passages, signs precede His coming (Luke 21:11,15). In other passages, no signs precede His arrival (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3). How do we put all these passages together if they describe one and the same event? It is the same puzzle that the Jews faced attempting to reconcile Old Testament passages which speak of a victorious king (Psalms 2) and a suffering servant (Isaiah 53). How do we reconcile these tensions in the Old Testament passages? We understand that they describe different Comings of our Lord: to suffer and die at His first coming, but to rule supreme at His Second Coming. Similarly, New Testament "Coming" passages with consistent contrasts are describing two different events: the Rapture of the Church—when He comes for His own versus the Second Coming in judgement upon an unbelieving and rejecting world. If we ignore this distinction, nothing but confusion will result.


I could add more, but this will suffice for now.

Thanks for this. Since flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, it leaves only saints in glorified bodies for Satan to rally against the rest of the saints when loosed. My take on #2.

 

[Oldmantook]

See the church in Philadelphia that Jesus promised would be removed and spared tribulation...

You are partially correct. Jesus promised the Philadelphian Church that he would "keep" them; not necessarily "remove" them from the hour of trial that is to come upon the earth. One can be kept or preserved in the midst of tribulation instead of being totally removed from the tribulation. Noah and family were not removed from the flood. The Israelites were not removed when God's plagues struck the Egyptians. The key to understanding this is to know what is the "hour" that Jesus referred to. If one understands what "hour" that is, then one understands exactly when the church will be spared. I'll let you study that for yourself. Hint: search for the word "hour" in Revelation and examine its context.