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Featured Is the Rapture Deception?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Devin P, Nov 3, 2018.

  1. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    No saints are left behind after the removal of the Church.
    However , during the 7 year tribulation multitudes receive Christ as Saviour and become saints.
    Many of them (not all) will become martyrs.
    They will be resurrected at the Second Coming of Christ , not to be confused with the rapture (the removal of the Church).
    These are two distinctive events which obviously have not come to pass yet.
     
  2. ItIsFinished!

    ItIsFinished! Jesus Christ is our only hope.

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    No. The 144,000 sons of Israel (12,000 from each 12 tribes) will be evangelizing during the 7 year tribulation. They will be sealed (divinely protected) by God so that the wickedness of the Antichrist will not affect them.
     
  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    If Christ comes in times we think not... Why do the people think rapture teaching is deception? What part of “Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 24:44) do you not understand?
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It's talking about temptations in general. How we escape them is to bear through it.
     
  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The trib is the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God. The wrath of God comes after the trib:

    Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
    Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Here God's wrath comes after the 7rth trump has sounded. That is the end of the trib and the beginning of God's wrath.


    Rev_16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

    The 7 vials of God's wrath only pour after the trib has ended.


    Rev_19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    Again, God's wrath associated with the second coming, after the end of the trib.
     
  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
    1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
    1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

    The Lord only surprises those who are deceived...the saved will not be surprised by his return.
     
  7. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    That scripture is frequently taken out of context. It means that the people are not living in such a state that they would be in bad shape if the Lord would come in their day.
     
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. - Mark 13:32-33
     
  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    It means exactly what it says. The unsaved are in darkness and the second coming will come as a surprise but not to the saved who are not in darkness.

    Paul explained this more in his second letter because people thought he taught that the second coming will come as a thief in the night even to Christians which is not what he said:


    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
    2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;



    Jesus will not return until the Apostasy and the man of sin (who is the antichrist) first occur. That means a pre-trib rapture cannot happen because the Apostasy and the AC are things that happen in the trib.

    Paul wrote 2nd thess to fight against a pre-trib rapture.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    “that man of sin be revealed‘

    Does not mean tribulation. The anti-Christ will be revealed pre-trib.
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, he is revealed after.

    The man of sin exists only in the tribulation.

    Jesus will not return until the Apostasy and the man of sin (who is the antichrist) first occur. That means a pre-trib rapture cannot happen because the Apostasy and the AC are things that happen in the trib.

    Paul wrote 2nd thess to fight against a pre-trib rapture.
     
  13. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    That's right.

    For regarding the 144,000, they will be Christians (Revelation 14:1,4), and so they will be part of the Church (cf. Ephesians 4:4-6). They will be the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12). They will be male virgins (Revelation 14:4), who could have been born in the 20th or 21st century, and who could already be part of the Church. For they will all be alive on the earth, and will all already be God's servants (Revelation 7:3; cf. Romans 6:22, Philippians 1:1), by the time of Revelation 7:3-8, during the first stage of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will have entered the Tribulation along with the rest of the Church alive at that time, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

    Also, the 144,000, who are of the twelve tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8), can include both Jews and Gentiles in the Church. For all Jews in the Church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all Gentiles in the Church have been grafted by God into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted by God into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23).

    The tribe of Dan is missing from the list of the 144,000's twelve tribes (Revelation 7:4-8; there, "Joseph" stands for Ephraim: Numbers 1:32, Psalms 78:67, Ezekiel 37:16b,19), because the Israel that they are from is not genetic Israel, with its twelve genetic tribes which include Dan (Genesis 49:28,17), but rather spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6-8), which consists of all elect people (Romans 9:11-13), whether Jews or Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

    That's right.

    For the woman in Revelation 12 represents the Church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). For she is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). And the moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the crown of twelve stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the twelve apostles (of Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the Church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

    Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

    Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the Church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will occur during the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the Church during that time who will not flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities and will be persecuted in every nation, being imprisoned and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

    Also, Genesis 37:9-10 is not (as is sometimes claimed) being referred to in Revelation 12:1. For in Revelation 12:1 the Church/Israel is not clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the Church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the Church/Israel does not have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the Church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the Church/Israel does not have Jacob's twelve sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the twelve apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her twelve tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

    Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus.

    For the "man child" is not Jesus Christ. For Revelation 12:5 is not about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from four different angles what will happen right before the start, and during, the literal 3.5 years of the future Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

    Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying: "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient Church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future Millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the Millennium, during the future Tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the Church will be caught up in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4-5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the Church (Revelation 14:4), in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).
     
  14. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that there will be no removal of the Church (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20).

    Also, regarding people being "left behind", note that no scripture refers to that idea. For Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 refer only to what will happen at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until immediately after the future Tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be non-Christians who will be taken to where they will be killed by Jesus Himself, and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

    Those "left" where they are at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include non-Christians who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the future Millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These non-Christians will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected Church during the Millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the Millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

    Before the Millennium, at Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming those in the Church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that the Church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), and the obedient part of the Church can then be married to Him (Revelation 19:7), in the sky, before He descends from the sky (the first heaven) to bring the Second-Coming wrath of God upon non-Christians (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

    So Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood from God, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the Church will be raptured into the sky at the Second Coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7), before Jesus Himself brings the Second-Coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
     
  15. Bible2+

    Bible2+ Matthew 4:4

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    Note that Matthew 24:36,42,44 refers to Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which He had just finished saying will not happen until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if Christians do not watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18, then the Second Coming will happen at an hour which they do not know/think not (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for Christians to know when the Second Coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, the rapture (the gathering together) of the Church will occur at the Second Coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

    Also, Jesus Christ says: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36); He does not say: "of that day and hour no man will know". So it is possible that at a certain point in our future, some Christians will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' Second Coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come back today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation-rapture and partial preterist views), then how can we also claim that He will come back when nobody thinks that He will (Matthew 24:44)?

    Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of Jesus Christ's Second Coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even Christians, can know the things of God until the Second Coming. But who would say that? For God's Holy Spirit can currently reveal to Christians the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of Jesus' Second Coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for Christians to know when the Second Coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the Second Coming: that is, surely God the Father will not send Jesus Christ back to the earth without having first revealed to some Christians the secret of the date of the Second Coming.

    Jesus Christ could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the future Antichrist) is set up in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

    *******

    Rather, mid-trib.

    For 2 Thessalonians 2:3 refers to when an individual man will be revealed (that is, without any remaining doubt) as being the Antichrist, by his sitting (at least one time) in a future, third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaiming himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15). This is one of the things which have to happen sometime before the future day of Jesus Christ's Second Coming and the gathering together (rapture) of the Church (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8) immediately after the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). For at His Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8b, Revelation 19:20).
     
  16. DM25

    DM25 Well-Known Member

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    When is tribulation going to happen? Are we close? I know the construction of the third temple in Jerusalem is a sign that the tribulation has begun, are we near that? Will it happen in the next couple of years? I feel like we are definitely nearing the end.
     
  17. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    The wrath of God is poured out throughout the Great tribulation time!
     
  18. YeshuaFan

    YeshuaFan Well-Known Member

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    Could the rapture be tied into the 2 witnesses being raised up by God to heaven then?
     
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Incorrect. As I have proven, God's wrath comes after the tribulation.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No. The two witnesses are brought to heaven prior to the 7th trump, which is when the rapture occurs.
     
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