Is the rapture a lie?

[redleghunter]

When Paul used the word "wordly" he wasn't referring to the soil of the earth

Yes of course and nor did I.

 

[mkgal1]

There was a previous thread (here) discussing Matthew 16:27-28

 

[mkgal1]

Preterism is a 20th century theory

Not so. It's the theology of the Orthodox church which is basically the early church. So it's not a new "theory".

Preterism = prophecies of the Bible as events which have already happened.

Jesus' life itself was a prophecy that was fulfilled, so even if that was the ONLY prophecy that you believe was fulfilled then you would qualify as a "preterist" (and wouldn't that include all Christians that believe Jesus' birth and Resurrection is a fulfilled prophecy?).

It's full preterism that believes every prophecy has been fulfilled (and I don't see anyone posting in support of that).

 

[mkgal1]

Yes of course and nor did I.

When you made reference to us being "pilgrims in an unholy land" and that "Jesus also told Pilate His Kingdom was not of this world" it seems you're arguing that "world" means the soil of this earth.

 

[mkgal1]

We are not going to bring about the Kingdom of God on a temporal basis as the dominionists describe but Christ destroying the nations and setting up His Kingdom on Earth.

Hebrews 10: NASB
11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

*WE* don't bring about the Kingdom of God (God does....and, I believe, HAS).

Are the priests offering sacrifices today? Have they ever since the destruction of the Temple in 70AD?

 

[redleghunter]

Not so. It's the theology of the Orthodox church which is basically the early church. So it's not a new "theory".

The Orthodox are A-MillennIial for the most part. As a matter of principle if we asked one they would quote the creeds.

They just don't get into all the eschatology deals like us.

The apostolic fathers were mostly of the millennial view. From what works we have.

Now there may be some EO laity here who espouse preterism but their church has not espoused this view.

I think you may be describing an Anglican tradition of eschatology called Historicism. That does employ some preterist ideas along with a-Millennial.

As a matter of fact an Anglican compatriot of your church used to post his own prophecies here on CF. He went by @interpreter

 

[mkgal1]

The Orthodox are A-MillennIial for the most part. As a matter of principle if we asked one they would quote the creeds.

They just don't get into all the eschatology deals like us.

The apostolic fathers were mostly of the millennial view. From what works we have.

Now there may be some EO laity here who espouse preterism but their church has not espoused this view.

Did you read what the definition of "preterism" is? If you believe in Christ's birth as a fulfilled prophecy....then you are also a preterist.

Eschatology is "last days" .....and in interpreting the Bible (especially the gospel accounts) the Orthodox are, most certainly, of the preterist view. (Check any web site of any EO church).

Here is something for you: Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy: Finding the Way to Christ in a Complicated Religious Landscape (2017 edition)

....and a review of that book:

The Rapture: An Orthodox Understanding (Infographic) - Time Eternal

A few weeks ago, I had the chance to read the new and revised edition of Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick’s Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy. I love the subtitle: “Finding the Way to Christ in a Complicated Religious Landscape.” And I love that the book lives up to the subtitle, too.

The Rapture has always been one of those things that complicates my own personal religious landscape–the landscape of my life, looking back, and the religious landscape I share with friends and family.

Years ago, realizing I did not actually believe in the Rapture anymore was the beginning of the end for me. The end of the fundamentalist-leaning Christianity I had grown up with and clung to in college. At the time, I could not have said why the Rapture and the strange apocalyptic brew I was surrounded by felt wrong to me, but it did.

And it was also the beginning, the beginning of a long journey–toward Orthodoxy, yes, but even more than that toward a more integrative, defragmented, whole worldview that made it possible for me to embrace Orthodoxy in the first place.

I wish I could have told my younger, confused, Rapture-questioning self that there was a more healing way through faith than fire and brimstone. I would have told her to look for Christ, to look for His Church. And perhaps to spend less time looking for heaps of left-behind clothes.

 

[mkgal1]

What I'm describing is called "already inaugurated" eschatology, but it's not limited to the Anglican church.

Already Not Yet Kingdom Diagram - Inaugurated Eschatology Visual Aid

 

[mkgal1]

Perhaps the language of the Orthodox church will be more clear:

And of His kingdom there will be no end . . .

Jesus is the royal Son of David, of whom it was prophesied by the angel at His birth:

He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there will be no end (Lk 1.32–33).

Through His sufferings as the Christ, Jesus achieved everlasting kingship and lordship over all creation. He has become “King of kings and Lord of lords,” sharing this title with God the Father Himself (Deut 10.17; Dan 2.47; Rev 19.16). As a man, Jesus Christ is King of the Kingdom of God.

Christ came for no other reason than to bring God’s kingdom to men. His very first public words are exactly those of His forerunner, John the Baptist: “Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Mt 3.2, 4.17).

All through His life Jesus spoke of the kingdom. In the sermons such as the Sermon on the Mount and the many parables, He told of the everlasting kingdom.

Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven . . .

Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

He who does these commandments and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

But seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness, and all things will be yours as well.

Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
(Mt 5–7)

The mustard seed, the leaven, the pearl of great price, the lost coin, the treasure in the field, the fishing net, the wedding feast, the banquet, the house of the Father, the vineyard . . . all are signs of the kingdom which Jesus has come to bring. And on the night of His last supper with the disciples He tells the apostles openly:

You are those who have continued with me in my trials; as My Father appointed a kingdom for Me, so do I appoint for you that you may eat and drink at My table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel (Lk 22: 28–30; Reading of the Vigil of Holy Thursday).

Christ’s kingdom is “not of this world” (Jn 18.31). He says this to Pontius Pilate when being mocked as king, revealing in this humiliation His genuine divine kingship. The Kingdom of God, which Christ will rule, will come with power at the end of time when the Lord will fill all creation and will be truly “all, and in all” (Col 3.11). The Church, which in popular Orthodox doctrine is called the Kingdom of God on earth, has already mysteriously been given this experience. In the Church, Christ is already acknowledged, glorified, and served, as the only king and lord; and His Holy Spirit, whom the saints of the Church have identified with the Kingdom of God, is already given to the world in the Church with full graciousness and power.

The Kingdom of God, therefore, is a Divine Reality. It is the reality of God’s presence among men through Christ and the Holy Spirit. “For the Kingdom of God . . . means . . . peace and joy and righteousness in the Holy Spirit” (Rom 14.17). The Kingdom of God as a spiritual, divine reality is given to men by Christ in the Church. It is celebrated and participated in the sacramental mysteries of the faith. It is witnessed to in the scriptures, the councils, the canons, and the saints. It will become the universal, final cosmic reality for the whole of creation at the end of the ages when Christ comes in glory to fill all things with Himself by the Holy Spirit, that God might be “all and in all” (1 Cor 15.28).~The Orthodox Faith - Volume I - Doctrine and Scripture - The Symbol of Faith - Kingdom of God

....and this:

The first Orthodox Christian reaction is that Jesus Christ charges us to go forth into the world as it is, and preach, teach and baptize until it becomes what the Father expected it to be. It is not for us to escape, certainly not to judge and separate ourselves from humanity, but to give an account of the hope that is in us so that we set examples of grace-filled people who demonstrate the ways that the image of God in which we are created brings forth the likeness of the Lord in all that we say and do. Indeed, we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come; however, we live in the meanwhile situation: Time to bring the gospel message alive in all ways possible. Study the icon of Christ’s entry into hades and you will see the truth in the love of God for mankind. The whole purpose of His incarnation, ministry, crucifixion and resurrection is to gather our original parents and all their children and release them from their separation from divinity. Salvation is God’s plan for humanity, evidence of His compassion, and the hope of all mankind.~False Alarm

 

[mkgal1]

More on the phrase "coming with the clouds"--

Many modern skeptics, following scholars such as Bertrand Russell and Albert Schweitzer, have believed Jesus to be a false prophet because he predicted his “coming on clouds” within the lifetime of his disciples. Did Jesus have the Second Coming in mind or does “coming on clouds” have a different meaning?

First, when Jesus told Caiaphas and the court that condemned him to death that he was the Son of Man who would come “on the clouds of heaven” he was not speaking of his second coming but of the coming judgment of Jerusalem (Matthew 26:63–64). As Caiaphas and the court well knew, clouds were a common Old Testament symbol pointing to God as the sovereign judge of the nations. In the words of Isaiah, “See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud and is coming to Egypt. The idols of Egypt tremble before him, and the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them” (Isaiah 19:1, emphasis added). Like the Old Testament prophets, Jesus employs the symbolism of clouds to warn his hearers that as judgment fell on Egypt, so would judgment soon befall Jerusalem.

Furthermore, the “coming on clouds” judgment metaphor was clearly intended for Caiaphas and the first–century crowd who condemned Christ to death. In the words of our Lord, “I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven” (Matthew 26:64, emphasis added). The generation that crucified Christ would seethe day that he was exalted and enthroned at “the right hand of the Mighty One.”

Finally, Jesus’ “coming on clouds” to judge Jerusalem in the first century points forward to the end of time when he will appear again “to judge the living and the dead” (2 Timothy 4:1; cf. 1 Peter 4:5). Indeed, as Jesus promised, a day is coming when “all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned” (John 5:28–29). Or as the writer of Hebrews put it, “he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him” (9:28).

For further study, see Hank Hanegraaff, The Apocalypse Code (Nashville:W Publishing Group, 2007).

 

[mkgal1]

Another point: the terms "coming" and "visitation" carry the connotation of judgement--

When I say that Jesus is coming again, remember that every time you hear the word “coming” in Scripture you don’t have to assume that that has to do specifically with the Second Coming of Christ. Sometimes it does because Hebrews says that Jesus is coming a second time. However, it doesn’t always have to do with the Second Coming because “coming” is used as a judgment metaphor in Scripture as well. So when Jesus said to Caiaphas in the court that’s condemning him to death “But I say to all of you, in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven,” a biblically illiterate person might have missed the import of his words, but Caiaphas and the council did not. If ever there was a razor-sharp metaphor, this was it, and it cut Caiaphas and the court condemning Christ to the quick. They understood that in saying he was the Son of Man that would come on the clouds of heaven, Jesus was making an overt reference to his coronation as the Son of Man in Daniel’s vision. You’ll remember that vision in Daniel 7. And in doing so he was not only claiming to be the preexistent sovereign of the universe, but he was prophesying that he would vindicate his claim before the very court that was now condemning him to death. As Caiaphas well knew, clouds were — as I mentioned a few moments ago — a common, Old Testament symbol that pointed to God as the sovereign Judge of the nations. Like the Old Testament prophets Jesus employs that symbolism of clouds to warn his hearers that as judgment fell on Egypt, so too judgment would befall Jerusalem.~ http://www.equip.org/hank_speaks_out/the-rapture/

 

[expos4ever]

I do not have time right now to answer feedback, but i do want to address this business of metaphor. Jesus tells Caiaphus that Caiaphus will see Jesus “coming on the clouds”. How can this possibly be literal? Is Caiaphus going to look out the window and see Jesus floating away into the sky?

Please. If you insist in being literal, and if you believe “coming on the clouds” is a rapture reference, how can Caiaphus possibly witness this, as Jesus clearly says he will, given that poor old Caiaphus is presently wearing a pine overcoat?