Is the parable of Lazarus a parable?

[JIMINZ]

two 'n's

.

Thank you.

 

[JIMINZ]

I can't put my finger on where I learned this but it may be that the 'sea' represents the world.

I think what your referring to is that the Sea represents the Peoples of the world, the sound of many voices (tongues).

 

[redleghunter]

I study out of all bibles.

Online Bible Study Tools.
www.biblegateway.com/
www.biblestudytools.com/
biblehub.com/
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm
www.linkedword.com/gen/1/-1/0
Bible Dictionaries.
www.biblestudytools.com/dictionaries/
www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/
www.studylight.org/dictionaries/hbd/
Ancient Greek Bible Text Online.
codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx
English Translation of the Greek Septuagint Bible.
www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/

Thanks. But you mentioned Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus was not canon.

So what is your canon?

Listing Bible links leads me to believe you view the Bible as like the Golden Corral all you can eat buffet.

 

[redleghunter]

View attachment 230158 How bout this one.

As a Redleg I appreciate the pic. But that is a cannon.

 

[CherubRam]

I think what your referring to is that the Sea represents the Peoples of the world, the sound of many voices (tongues).

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[JIMINZ]

As a Redleg I appreciate the pic. But that is a cannon.

.

Sorry

 

[JIMINZ]

Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

That's it.

I didn't look it up it was in my memory. Thanks

 

[CherubRam]

Thanks. But you mentioned Luke 16 and the story of Lazarus was not canon.

So what is your canon?

Listing Bible links leads me to believe you view the Bible as like the Golden Corral all you can eat buffet.

I believe the bible to be the word of God, but the scriptures also warn us that it would be tampered with.
Lying Pen


Jeremiah 8:8

“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?


1 Timothy 1:3

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer


2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.


Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God,…


Isaiah 8:12

“Do not call conspiracy everything this people calls a conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.


Jeremiah 11:9

And the Lord said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


Ezekiel 22:25

There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.






2 Thessalonians 2:2

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come…



Here is that letter in our bibles.

Matthew 27:51

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

 

[redleghunter]

I believe the bible to be the word of God, but the scriptures also warn us that it would be tampered with.
Lying Pen


Jeremiah 8:8

“‘How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?


1 Timothy 1:3

As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer


2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.


Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God,…


Isaiah 8:12

“Do not call conspiracy everything this people calls a conspiracy; do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it.


Jeremiah 11:9

And the Lord said unto me, A conspiracy is found among the men of Judah, and among the inhabitants of Jerusalem.


Ezekiel 22:25

There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.






2 Thessalonians 2:2

not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come…



Here is that letter in our bibles.

Matthew 27:51

51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

How do you determine where the lying pen lies?

 

[CherubRam]

How do you determine where the lying pen lies?

By searching the scriptures and looking for contradictions.

 

[CherubRam]

I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.


The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude the Father in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sence to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Luke 20:16
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (Grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Revelation 21
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
6 He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This (That) is the second death."


Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

Serpent’s Doctrine

Hell is the Serpent’s Doctrine that there is eternal life in Hell. Hell being a type of heaven according to Paganism.


A soul is a body with a spirit. A body without a spirit is dead. Spirit is the nature of a person, place, or thing. Both body and spirit cease to exist as a life force until they are called back into being by God. Every little thing about us is recorded before we die.


Spirits die with the body. If people were not called back into being by God, they would never live again.


Isaiah 26:14

They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations


Matthew 10:28

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both (soul / spirit) and body in (hell / Gehenna.)

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations



Ψυχην /soul, psyche, Spirit

Soul / ψυχή

Psyche / ψυχή, ψυχοσύνθεση

Spirit / πνεύμα, ψυχή, διάθεση, οινόπνευμα, φρόνημα, ζωή


Gehenna / A place of destruction. In a archaeological dig no evidence of continual burning of trash was found. However, potsherds were found; a dump for broken clay pots.


The Hebrew Ge Hinnom, literally "Valley of Hinnom." This was known in the Old Testament as Gei Ben-Hinnom, literally the "Valley of the son of Hinnom", and in the Talmud as גהנם Gehinnam or גהנום Gehinnom.



2 Kings 23:10

He desecrated Topheth, which was in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, so no one could use it to sacrifice their son or daughter in the fire to Molek.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Chronicles 28:3

He burned sacrifices in the Valley of Ben Hinnom and sacrificed his children in the fire, engaging in the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

2 Chronicles 33:6

He sacrificed his children in the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced divination and witchcraft, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Nehemiah 11:30

Zanoah, Adullam and their villages, in Lachish and its fields, and in Azekah and its settlements. So they were living all the way from Beersheba to the Valley of Hinnom.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Jeremiah 7:31

They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Jeremiah 7:32

So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call it Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter, for they will bury the dead in Topheth until there is no more room.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Jeremiah 19:2

and go out to the Valley of Ben Hinnom, near the entrance of the Potsherd Gate. There proclaim the words I tell you,

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Jeremiah 19:6

So beware, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when people will no longer call this place Topheth or the Valley of Ben Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Jeremiah 32:35

They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded—nor did it enter my mind—that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[redleghunter]

By searching the scriptures and looking for contradictions.

What if what you consider contradictions are not.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a contradiction in what way?

 

[CherubRam]

What if what you consider contradictions are not.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is a contradiction in what way?

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude the Father in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.


Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Just a reminder that it was the Catholic Church that canonized scripture.

 

[redleghunter]

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation

Jesus did associate unrighteousness to those who caused poverty and suffering. It is a characteristic of an unregenerate heart.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.

The relevance is clear. No?

Luke 16: NASB
13“No servant can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth.”

14Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at Him. 15And He said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

16“The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17“But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

The story of Lazarus and the Rich man supports the above. Especially verses 16-17. In those verses Jesus ties the Law and Prophets to the idolatry of the Pharisees who loved money more than God and neighbor.

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation

You may want to review what is actually said on suffering in the NT.

Romans 5:NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.


Is Romans in your canon? If not...

Mark 8: NASB
34And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. 35“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. 36“For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? 37“For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? 38“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

 

[redleghunter]

Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept.

What does ancient being mean?

 

[CherubRam]

What does ancient being mean?

It means that he is very old.

 

[CherubRam]

Abraham and King David were very rich. You can not get into heaven just because you are poor.

 

[redleghunter]

It means that he is very old.

So you see the Logos as a created being?

 

[redleghunter]

Abraham and King David were very rich. You can not get into heaven just because you are poor.

You did not really read what I wrote.

Abraham and David did not worship their wealth.

 

[CherubRam]

So you see the Logos as a created being?

A Body You Have Prepared For Me.

Psalm 40 commentary.
N.I.V. foot note for Psalms 40:6 reads: “Hebrew; Septuagint: but a body you have prepared for me. (See also Symmachus and Theodotion)” End of quote.

Symmachus the Ebonite was a late 2nd century author of one of the Greek versions of the Old Testament.

Theodotion 200 A.D.
Theodotion was a Jewish scholar, perhaps working in Ephesus, who translated the Hebrew Bible into Greek. Whether he was revising the Septuagint, or was working from Hebrew manuscripts that represented a parallel tradition that has not survived, and is debated. His finished version, which filled some lacunae in the Septuagint version of the Book of Jeremiah and Book of Job, formed one column in Origen's Hexapla. (The Hexapla presented six Hebrew and Greek texts side-by-side: two Greek versions, by Aquila of Sinope and Symmachus, preceding the Septuagint, and Theodotian's version following it, apparently reflecting a contemporary understanding of their historical sequence.

Theodotion's translation was so widely copied in the Early Christian church, that it superseded the Septuagint Book of Daniel. Jerome, in his preface to Daniel records the rejection of the Septuagint version in Christian usage, asserting that its translation was very faulty.

Although Theodotion was Anti-Christ, it may not have occurred to him to change the Hebrew Psalm script from reading: “But a body you have prepared for me.” In Hebrews 10:5 the verse is also repeated. “Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;”…

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.

Orthodox Jews claim that He (God) would not father a child upon a human woman. So, the idea of Christ being a human, fathered by the Holy Spirit is not 'impossible', it would just prove God to be a liar. If the lineage goes through Mary, it does not count because tribal lineage only goes through the father, while national lineage only goes through the mother. If it goes through Joseph, it does not count, because Joseph was not his father.


I would like to state that Christians never claimed that God procreated through Mary, but that He (God) created a body in the linage of David. I do not think that that linage ruling was in effect at the time of Christ birth.

2 John 1:7. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Yahshua Messiah as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

1 John 2:22. Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Yahshua is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24. See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25. And this is what he even promised us—eternal life.
26. I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you.



The Masoretes Version

Psalms 40:6. Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but my ears you have pierced;
burnt offerings and sin offerings
you did not require.
7. Then I said, "Here I am, I have come—
it is written about me in the scroll.


If those who are the Anti-Christ deny that the Messiah would come in bodily form, then it is very likely for them to have changed the Hebrew text of Psalms 40:6 to read: “but my ears you have pierced”…


Long before the Christian era the scripture read: "a body you have prepared for me." The Masoretes Version is a late entry into the bible.