Is the Holy Spirit an Author of Confusion?

[chestertonrules]

Why is it that so many Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit have sharp differences in their understanding of key doctrines of the faith?


examples:

The significance of Holy Communion
Infant Baptism
Once Saved Always Saved
Human cooperation in the salvation process
Apostolic Succession
Confession to a Priest
etc.

 

[tulc]

Why is it that so many Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit have sharp differences in their understanding of key doctrines of the faith?


examples:

The significance of Holy Communion
Infant Baptism
Once Saved Always Saved
Human cooperation in the salvation process
Apostolic Succession
Confession to a Priest
etc.

Because no one's infallible?
tulc(no matter who's seat they sit in?)

 

[chestertonrules]

Because no one's infallible?
tulc(no matter who's seat they sit in?)

What did Jesus tell the apostles?

The person who listens to you listens to me, and the person who rejects you rejects me.

What about those who listened, what did they do?

2 Tim 2

2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

What were those who heard the gospel message to do?

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.

Why were they so confident in the doctrine they were teaching?

Jesus gave his disciples this promise:

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.



If stark doctrinal differences exist, whose interpretation do you trust?


Paul told us:

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

 

[tulc]

What did Jesus tell the apostles?

The person who listens to you listens to me, and the person who rejects you rejects me.

What about those who listened, what did they do?

2 Tim 2

2And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others.

What were those who heard the gospel message to do?

15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions and instructions which you were taught by us, whether by our word of mouth or by letter.

Why were they so confident in the doctrine they were teaching?

Jesus gave his disciples this promise:

12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth.



If stark doctrinal differences exist, whose interpretation do you trust?


Paul told us:

1 Timothy 3:15
if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

So the Apostles were infallible?
tulc(never heard that before)

 

[chestertonrules]

So the Apostles were infallible?
tulc(never heard that before)

Jesus said that the person listening to them was listening to him.

Is Jesus infallible?

Do you believe the apostles taught false doctrine?

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. I think this means that when they were teaching the faith they were infallible.

 

[JacobHall86]

There is a difference between the Holy Spirits leading and a churches teaching. Its called Human interaction.

BTW, nice Semi-Pelagian plug.

 

[chestertonrules]

There is a difference between the Holy Spirits leading and a churches teaching. .

I don't think so.

If the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, if the church was founded by the apostles, if the Holy Spirit will lead the apostles into all truth, then I don't think there is a difference.

There is only a difference if you reject this church.

 

[tulc]

Jesus said that the person listening to them was listening to him.

Is Jesus infallible?

Do you believe the apostles taught false doctrine?

Jesus said the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth. I think this means that when they were teaching the faith they were infallible.

So all the Apostles were infallible, not just one of them?
tulc(thinks he may have an idea)

 

[chestertonrules]

So all the Apostles were infallible, not just one of them?
tulc(thinks he may have an idea)

Jesus said that those who listened to the apostles were listening to him.

Do you have evidence that the apostles taught conflicting doctrine?

I'm going with Jesus on this one!

 

[JacobHall86]

I reject the false notion that the Church spoken of in scripture is an actual denomination, instead of the Universal Body of Believers.

I also find it hard to believe that the way the RCC does things today is the EXACT way the Apostles did it. Namely Latin in services. The stance that the RCC is the only one who holds truth is blatantly false, and such an easy comment to make when you can run away from it when you are proved wrong. Keep it up Internet cowboy.

 

[chestertonrules]

I reject the false notion that the Church spoken of in scripture is an actual denomination, instead of the Universal Body of Believers.

I can understand why a non Catholic would reach that conclusion, but why would this universal body of believers believe such widely disparate things?

I also find it hard to believe that the way the RCC does things today is the EXACT way the Apostles did it. Namely Latin in services. The stance that the RCC is the only one who holds truth is blatantly false, and such an easy comment to make when you can run away from it when you are proved wrong. Keep it up Internet cowboy.

You may find it hard to believe, but that doesn't make it false. If you can find evidence that the Church today believes something different about the central doctrines of the faith than the early church believed, please present it.

Here's something that I find persuasive:

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans-110 AD


See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the CatholicChurch. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

 

[tulc]

I don't think so.

If the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, if the church was founded by the apostles, if the Holy Spirit will lead the apostles into all truth, then I don't think there is a difference.

There is only a difference if you reject this church.

So now not only were the Apostles infallible but (surprise!) your Church is also?
tulc(man, I did NOT see that coming)

 

[JacobHall86]

Augustine Differs on your view of Salvation. And since you seem to speak for the church (atleast thats the way you seem to come off) I would assume that that is infact a difference between an ECF who shaped the Churches Theology for 1700 Years, or you simply ignore the teachings of the ECF that you don't agree with.

And please don't think that because in 110AD the term Catholic was used that it solely means the RCC.

 

[chestertonrules]

So now not only were the Apostles infallible but (surprise!) your Church is also?
tulc(man, I did NOT see that coming)

Either:

The Holy Spirit did not lead the apostles into all truth, OR, the truth was lost along the way, OR, the gates of hell have not prevailed against the Church built by Jesus.

You seem to think that the mass confusion and disarray in much of Christianity is consistent with the scriptures I posted.

I don't.

Consistent truth is found in the oldest and largest church in the world.

 

[chestertonrules]

Augustine Differs on your view of Salvation. And since you seem to speak for the church (atleast thats the way you seem to come off) I would assume that that is infact a difference between an ECF who shaped the Churches Theology for 1700 Years, or you simply ignore the teachings of the ECF that you don't agree with.

And please don't think that because in 110AD the term Catholic was used that it solely means the RCC.

Augustine's teachings on grace are a topic of debate.

Among Catholics, the two primary modes of understanding this dilema are Molinist(leaning Arminian) and Thomist(leaning Calvinist). The Church has not declared either to be true.

There are contradictions in Augustine's writings, although it can't be denied that his views are aligned with Calvinism on the nature of God's sovereign grace.

That is not relevant here, however.

Did Jesus leave us without a guide?

Why the confusion?

 

[JacobHall86]

Consistent truth is found in the oldest and largest church in the world.

As long as you ignore the history pre Vatican II that is.

 

[chestertonrules]

As long as you ignore the history pre Vatican II that is.

Feel free to make a point. Wild accusations accomplish nothing.

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Why is it that so many Christians who claim to be led by the Holy Spirit have sharp differences in their understanding of key doctrines of the faith?


examples:

The significance of Holy Communion
Infant Baptism
Once Saved Always Saved
Human cooperation in the salvation process
Apostolic Succession
Confession to a Priest
etc.

Because life is not a PAT-THEORY. Life is not a Religion. Life is not a book. Life is not man. Life is God. And God is confusing.

 

[sunlover1]

Because life is not a PAT-THEORY. Life is not a Religion. Life is not a book. Life is not man. Life is God. And God is confusing.

Amen.
But getting to know HIm and His Ways is an awesome
process isnt it?

 

[toirewadokodesuka]

Amen.
But getting to know HIm and His Ways is an awesome
process isnt it?

Sweeter than candy, purer than wine!