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Is the Gospel undefinable?

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by janxharris, Sep 7, 2017.

  1. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    All without exception? Paul appears to disqualify Pharaoh...and others.
     
  2. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    God has elected some to salvation, in His Son. Romans 9 makes that pretty clear.

    I see no contradiction between the two passages in the OP. Could you point to specific verse that you find troubling? Where does the contradiction lie in your view?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  3. Serving Zion

    Serving Zion Seek First His Kingdom & Righteousness

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    I will define it as Matthew 25 states it: "I was hungry, you did not feed me, thirsty, naked, sick and imprisoned. Whenever you did to one of these, my brethren, you were doing it to me." The righteous go to everlasting life, the wicked to everlasting destruction.

    I do not see any of Romans 9 that suggests such salvation is God's sovereign choice alone.

    I would like to remind you of how Pharaoh's punishment came about, as it is described through Genesis 41:25-57, Exodus 1:8-11, Exodus 3:7-10, Exodus 3:19-20 and Exodus 5. You can observe in those scriptures the choices being made by Pharaoh and YHWH and you can judge for yourself whether Pharaoh should meet the criteria for salvation, or whether his punishment was unjust. Remember, the Israelites did not sell themselves into slavery in Egypt, their freedom was taken from them while they had originally been honorary guests, and they had done no wrong to the Egyptians (Proverbs 3:29).
     
  4. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Those not elected are rejected because of what reason?

    I'll respond when I know a bit more about your stance on this.
     
  5. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    All men are guilty in Adam (1 Corinthians 15:21) God chose to have mercy on some. He was under no obligation to have mercy on any.
     
  6. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Thanks.

    Do you accept that Paul and the apostles preached the gospel as outlined in 1 Cor. 15:3ff? Is that what you preach?
     
  7. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    I'm not a preacher.

    Please respond to my previous question as you promised. Which part of the texts do you find in conflict, and why?
     
  8. janxharris

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    But as a Christian you are to spread the good news - so I am asking you what you specifically say.

    Paul and the apostles told unbelievers that Christ died for them and rose from the dead - and that belief in this led to salvation.

    You're suggesting that God only permitted this for the elect of His choosing.
     
  9. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Where in the passage listed did Paul say that?
     
  10. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Are you saying that you believe, "Christ died for our sins" refers to all people without exception? If so, you would be incorrect, and that's easily demonstrated. Just read verse one. Paul is addressing Christians. Verse three is referring to those who are named in verse one, i.e., "brothers and sisters".

    "Now, brothers and sisters,. . . Christ died for our sins"
     
  11. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    1 Cor. 15:11
    Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach and this is what you believed.

    You don't tell unbelievers that Christ died for them? What is your good news for unbelievers?
     
  12. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Paul did preach that, and those, "brothers and sisters" did believe it.

    You are letting your presuppositions cloud your thinking. Start with scripture, and let *it* form your views. Verse 1 could not be more clear, yet by starting with your presuppositions, you can't even see it. The letter is addressed to Christians, as are all of the epistles, BTW.

    The gospel goes out to the entire world. It is cast, like seed from the sower, onto good soil and bad. You and I have no idea which is which but we are commanded to join in the work of proclamation regardless.

    When I have the opportunity, I tell people what John 3:16 says: “For God loved ithe world, in such a manner, that he gave his only Son, that whoeverbelieves in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved,
     
  13. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Just to be clear, are you saying that you accept that Paul told the Corinthians (the unbelieving Corinthians) that, 'Christ died for our sins'?
     
  14. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    I accept what you say.

    Presumably you also tell them about the elect of God?
     
  15. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Brother and sisters. The text says, "brothers and sisters".

    Read the Bible in context, and understand the audience, or you will end up with error of Avery size shape and color.

    Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved,
     
  16. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    I tell them what I just told you, the gospel. If I told them that Christ died for all men, I would be a Universalist.

    The command of God is to repent and believe. That command is to ALL men, without exception, so I can say that to anyone.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2017
  17. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    Since there is a condition which needs to be met, we can't tell unbelievers that Christ died for their sins. Faith is the condition which needs to be met, so we can say, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:31).
     
  18. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    Is 1 Cor. 15:3ff the gospel?
     
  19. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

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    In that text, Paul is speaking to Christians, and addressing them as such. If you would like to see how the apostles addressed people at large, read the Book of Acts.

    1 Corinthians 15 contains a summary of the truths contained in the gospel. John 3:16 is (one way) they are delivered to the world.
     
  20. janxharris

    janxharris Veteran

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    So you are agreeing with Paul that it is the Gospel?
    Are you suggesting there are two Gospels? One for unbelievers and one for believers?

    Paul said,'...this is what we preach and this is what you believed,' so they would have been unbelievers when the preaching was delivered.

    It seems that you don't actually have any good news for mankind since your gospel is, in reality, 'you will believe if you are of those chosen by God.'
     
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