Is the fourth commandment a moral issue?

[ricker]

I read most of it and I disagree with most of it. For one thing the entire Bible always says God makes no distinction between men and is no respector of persons.

This is true of men, but not nations.

The nation of Israel became the favored nation because of some faithful patriachs like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob not because they were anything special as a race. All mankind is precious to God. Israel represents God's chosen people but not because of their race but because of faithfulness and righteous living of the ones God blessed way back then. Today Israel is again God's chosen people for the same reason i.e. faithfulness and righteous living thru the power of Jesus Christ.

Israel was God's chosen people. Show me anywhere the Christian church is called Israel.

The only part of the covenant that went obsolete is the ceremonial laws that involve sacrificing animals etc.

I know that is what you believe, but that's not what it says.

No man is ever not under the jurisdiction of comiting murder, stealing, coveting, worshiping idols, swearing or breaking the Sabbath.

Did you miss my point on purpose or unintentially? Some of the laws may be the same.

The prophecies in the Old and New Testament tell us plainly that Israel will go thru to the end of time and be saved. There is no more God rejecting Israel anymore because He has His remnant faithful who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ who will be translated/resurrected to meet Him in the sky.

Can you quote me a verse saying Israel will be the remnant in the end times? This would make a difference to me.

I respectfully disagree. This verse is telling us that just because you are a Jew by inheritance you are not necessarily one in God's eyes but anyone who is a Jew inwardly can become one in God's eyes IOW part of spiritual Israel.

I followed you untill you interjected the spiritual Israel part. Where does it say Gentiles can become Jews, spiritual or not? Where does the Bible anywhere say Gentiles can become spiritual Jews? Where does the Bible ever call the church Israel? We become spiritual through the Holy Spirit. Nowhere in all the talk of Jews and Gentiles in the new testament does it equate Jews and Gentiles except in how they are saved through Jesus.
God bless! Ricker

 

[ricker]

[

quote=RND;43193424]I suppose then you are in complete agreement that it was never Moses' covenant but God's and God's alone? Thus we never see in the Bible any mention or description of the "Mosaic" covenant.

For goodness sakes, the term Mosaic covenant is a well established term used to speak of the covenant God made with Israel through Moses after the Exodus. I didn't make the term up. Google it if you think otherwise. It is just an expression to let people know what covenant we are talking about. This is a great example of a rabbit trail used to divert attention away from the topic at hand. Is that all the better you can do?

That's a very deep question and can elicit a very long Bible study regarding the relationship between God and Moses.
The short answer of course would be that God saw in Moses the necessary and prerequiste faith to do what God wanted him to do.

Moses was certainly a great man of God. So what does that have to do with spiritual Israel?

Exd 3:12
And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this [shall be] a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

And he surely did! Your point?
God bless! Ricker

 

[RND]

For goodness sakes, the term Mosaic covenant is a well established term used to speak of the covenant God made with Israel through Moses after the Exodus.

Well established with whom? I Googled the term and the believers and users of this term seem as obscured and vague as the term itself.

This one in particular references a completely different text than you did. What is the Mosaic Covenant?

Interesting to me is the lack of any "mainstream" denominational explaination of the is vague and non-sensical term.

I didn't make the term up. Google it if you think otherwise. It is just an expression to let people know what covenant we are talking about. This is a great example of a rabbit trail used to divert attention away from the topic at hand. Is that all the better you can do?

What covenant is it that we are talking about God's or Moses'?

Moses was certainly a great man of God. So what does that have to do with spiritual Israel?

Moses was a type of Christ?

And he surely did! Your point?
God bless! Ricker

My point was an answer to your question.

The short answer of course would be that God saw in Moses the necessary and prerequiste faith to do what God wanted him to do.

Exd 3:12
And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this [shall be] a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

 

[ricker]

Well established with whom? I Googled the term and the believers and users of this term seem as obscured and vague as the term itself.

This one in particular references a completely different text than you did. What is the Mosaic Covenant?

Interesting to me is the lack of any "mainstream" denominational explaination of the is vague and non-sensical term.

What covenant is it that we are talking about God's or Moses'?

Moses was a type of Christ?

My point was an answer to your question.

Whatever. Life's too short to argue over the semantics of a name. Believe the verses that say it was a covenant with Israel or don't, I really don't care.

 

[RND]

Whatever. Life's too short to argue over the semantics of a name. Believe the verses that say it was a covenant with Israel or don't, I really don't care.

I'll take that as your reluctant admission that there has never been a "Mosaic" covenant, nor has one ever been mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Ricker

I'm going to pull all of my stuff together and start a new thread on "Spiritual Israel". There's some interesting stuff to look at and yes the whole Bible points towards Israel to be the church in the last days. The dispensationalist who think literal Israel will come back and re-build a new temple are not considering all of the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[ricker]

I'll take that as your reluctant admission that there has never been a "Mosaic" covenant, nor has one ever been mentioned in the Bible.

I bow down to your superior intelect and rapier sharp wit. I should have never presumed to use such a term to delineate the covenant God put Christians under by way of Israel. Next time I will find someone easier to bamboozle.
Your grovelling and conquered foe, Ricker

 

[ricker]

Ricker

I'm going to pull all of my stuff together and start a new thread on "Spiritual Israel". There's some interesting stuff to look at and yes the whole Bible points towards Israel to be the church in the last days. The dispensationalist who think literal Israel will come back and re-build a new temple are not considering all of the Bible.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Sounds good Jim!
Ricker

 

[RND]

I bow down to your superior intelect and rapier sharp wit. I should have never presumed to use such a term to delineate the covenant God put Christians under by way of Israel. Next time I will find someone easier to bamboozle.
Your grovelling and conquered foe, Ricker

Ricker, you should have done this many, many, many posts ago regarding this topic, making your grovelling unnecessary. But thanks are in order for at least admitting that there is no such thing as a "Mosaic" Covenant. I'm with you.

Shall we tackle "Levitical law" next!?

 

[ricker]

Ricker, you should have done this many, many, many posts ago regarding this topic, making your grovelling unnecessary.But thanks are in order for at least admitting that there is no such thing as a "Mosaic" Covenant. I'm with you.

Shall we tackle "Levitical law" next!?/quote]

Ho ho, RND!
I am reticent to further submit to your consummate theological acumen! Perhaps one unaquainted with your trenchant rhetoric would be begiled by your wiles. As for I, continued discourse with you could only further embarrass my position as the obiquitous Lutheran participating in this discussion.
In awe! Ricker

 

[RND]

Ho ho, RND!
I am reticent to further submit to your consummate theological acumen! Perhaps one unaquainted with your trenchant rhetoric would be begiled by your wiles. As for I, continued discourse with you could only further embarrass my position as the obiquitous Lutheran participating in this discussion.
In awe! Ricker

Oh, stop it Ricker! You wouldn't be in this position if you simply would have recognized your rather huge boo-boo right from the start.

But you are right that your position was an embarrassment.

 

[ricker]

Oh, stop it Ricker! You wouldn't be in this position if you simply would have recognized your rather huge boo-boo right from the start.

But you are right that your position was an embarrassment.

Lesson learned. From now on I will try to refer to the covenant in question as "the covenant between God and Israel established at Siani through Moses", instead of the innacurate and trite term "Mosaic covenant". Looking back I can't believe I actually tried to use this abomination!
God bless! Ricker

 

[RND]

Lesson learned. From now on I will try to refer to the covenant in question as "the covenant between God and Israel established at Siani through Moses", instead of the innacurate and trite term "Mosaic covenant". Looking back I can't believe I actually tried to use this abomination!
God bless! Ricker

Just remember it this way Ricker ole' boy....

Who's covenant was it?

Exd 6:4
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

Exd 6:5
And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

In fact Ricker, can you name any instances in the Bible where a covenant between God and His people was called anything other than His?

As for your point "the covenant between God and Israel established at Siani through Moses" in the covenant between Israel and God, Moses was not required to be part of it nor was He needed to establish it. Moses was chosen by God because God knew Moses' character and abilities to lead God's people. The covenant wasn't established "through" Moses, it was established by God with all the people of Israel, including Moses.

 

[ricker]

Just remember it this way Ricker ole' boy....

Who's covenant was it?

Exd 6:4
And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

Exd 6:5
And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant.

In fact Ricker, can you name any instances in the Bible where a covenant between God and His people was called anything other than His?

As for your point "the covenant between God and Israel established at Siani through Moses" in the covenant between Israel and God, Moses was not required to be part of it nor was He needed to establish it. Moses was chosen by God because God knew Moses' character and abilities to lead God's people. The covenant wasn't established "through" Moses, it was established by God with all the people of Israel, including Moses.

Thanks RND! Would you be so kind as to tell me what exact words you would like me use when I refer to this said covenant? I would hate to offend anyone or use incorrect terminology.
God bles! Ricker

Edit to add: I thought I would be OK saying "through Moses" because the Bible says: "that the LORD established on Mount Sinai between himself and the Israelites through Moses", but I guess I'm wrong as usual.

 

[RND]

Thanks RND! Would you be so kind as to tell me what exact words you would like me use when I refer to this said covenant? I would hate to offend anyone or use incorrect terminology.
God bles! Ricker

You are most welcome Ricker!

How about 'covenant'? Or 'the covenant.'

Lot's of us are grown-ups here and can brush our own teeth, comb our own hair, and put our clothes on all by ourself. We're SDA's and not to sound too arrogant but I would venture to guess many here have a firm grasp on certain Biblical concepts. 'The covenant' and 'the sanctuary' come to mind.

I'm certain most here would know what you are referring to when you say 'covenant' or 'the covenant.'

What's say you give it a try Ricker ol' boy?

 

[ricker]

You are most welcome Ricker!

How about 'covenant'? Or 'the covenant.'

Lot's of us are grown-ups here and can brush our own teeth, comb our own hair, and put our clothes on all by ourself. We're SDA's and not to sound too arrogant but I would venture to guess many here have a firm grasp on certain Biblical concepts. 'The covenant' and 'the sanctuary' come to mind.

I'm certain most here would know what you are referring to when you say 'covenant' or 'the covenant.'

What's say you give it a try Ricker ol' boy?

I'll try if you insist, oh learned one!

The covenant includes the ten commandments that show us God's love and instructions for us as His children.

Did I do OK? Did I? Did I?

God bless! Ricker

 

[RND]

I'll try if you insist, oh learned one!

The covenant includes the ten commandments that show us God's love and instructions for us as His children.

Did I do OK? Did I? Did I?

God bless! Ricker

You're smarter than the average bear Yogi!

 

[honorthesabbath]

Hi Honor

Well yes and no. Children are spanked for unrighteousness. But that does not mean that they have to learn righteousness. The spanking is to help them to obey the parents, who understands better than children...the child will grow to know righteousness, but your spanking may help them to obey what God has already programmed them for through your moral duty to help them. I like what you said..."sinfulness is all about self". And your spanking helps them to understand this, and to obey what they where already programmed for. Look at the following passage.

(Rom 1:19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
(Rom 1:20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.


To suggest that people have to be taught righteousness becasue it was never inbread is to give God no reason to punish us becasue we where all born as animals. But rather all men are born with some understanding of righteousness. Thus we have no excuse. But righteousness did become obscured through sin.

(Gen 6:5) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Gen 6:6) And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Men knew what sin was, but it was very obscured until the law. But the Sabbath was a learned law and not a moral law. No one is born with the desire to keep the 7th day holy. The Sabbath is a learned conviction rather than a moral inbread conviction. When I gave up the day, I did feel guilty. But I had to remind self that it was a learned conviction because of a false idea. Not becasue it was an inbread desire. You yourself never gave any thought to keeping the sabbath from inborn tendencies, but from learned behavor.

(Rom 1:21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The passage says mens heart became darken becasue they rejected the truth of God and His righteousness. This proves that men are born with a sense of right and wrong and that men reject the inborn tendencies for righteounsess through the deceitfulness of sin.

AT

I think this story disproves your theory that everyone knows right from wrong....

Jonah 4:11
Should I 1 not be even more 2 concerned 3 about Nineveh, this enormous city? 4 There are more than one hundred twenty thousand people in it who do not know right from wrong, 5 as well as many animals!” 6

 

[elijahorao]

Can you illustrate the morality of the Sabbath?

Can you illustrate the morality of the Sabbath?

Yes! It relates to honouring God Our Heavenly Parent just as the fifth commandment relates to honouring earthly parents

 

[elijahorao]

Ricker, you should have done this many, many, many posts ago regarding this topic, making your grovelling unnecessary.But thanks are in order for at least admitting that there is no such thing as a "Mosaic" Covenant. I'm with you.

Shall we tackle "Levitical law" next!?/quote]

Ho ho, RND!
I am reticent to further submit to your consummate theological acumen! Perhaps one unaquainted with your trenchant rhetoric would be begiled by your wiles. As for I, continued discourse with you could only further embarrass my position as the obiquitous Lutheran participating in this discussion.
In awe! Ricker

I say, this chap is a veritable cornocopia of vocabulary