Is the fourth commandment a moral issue?

[Adventtruth]

You only realize that stealing and hurting others is wrong after you get a few swats on your behind for doing so.

If your parents hadn't told you to STOP doing those things--you would have no knowledge that these things were wrong. Why?

Because your sinful nature is ALL ABOUT SELF and not for one minute would that evil mind of yours( all of ours) as an infant or child crucify itself.

Hi Honor

Well yes and no. Children are spanked for unrighteousness. But that does not mean that they have to learn righteousness. The spanking is to help them to obey the parents, who understands better than children...the child will grow to know righteousness, but your spanking may help them to obey what God has already programmed them for through your moral duty to help them. I like what you said..."sinfulness is all about self". And your spanking helps them to understand this, and to obey what they where already programmed for. Look at the following passage.

(Rom 1:19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
(Rom 1:20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.


To suggest that people have to be taught righteousness becasue it was never inbread is to give God no reason to punish us becasue we where all born as animals. But rather all men are born with some understanding of righteousness. Thus we have no excuse. But righteousness did become obscured through sin.

(Gen 6:5) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Gen 6:6) And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Men knew what sin was, but it was very obscured until the law. But the Sabbath was a learned law and not a moral law. No one is born with the desire to keep the 7th day holy. The Sabbath is a learned conviction rather than a moral inbread conviction. When I gave up the day, I did feel guilty. But I had to remind self that it was a learned conviction because of a false idea. Not becasue it was an inbread desire. You yourself never gave any thought to keeping the sabbath from inborn tendencies, but from learned behavor.

(Rom 1:21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The passage says mens heart became darken becasue they rejected the truth of God and His righteousness. This proves that men are born with a sense of right and wrong and that men reject the inborn tendencies for righteounsess through the deceitfulness of sin.

AT

 

[Bourbaki]

What makes all of the 10C moral is the fact that they are based on the principle of love. The first 4 show that you love God with all your heart, mind and strength, the last 6 show that you love others as yourself.

Isn't it interesting that Satan also argued against certain aspects of God's law in heaven, saying that it wasn't necessary?

"Leaving his place in the immediate presence of the Father, Lucifer went forth to diffuse the spirit of discontent among the angels. He worked with mysterious secrecy, and for a time concealed his real purpose under an appearance of reverence for God. He began to insinuate doubts concerning the laws that governed heavenly beings, intimating that though laws might be necessary for the inhabitants of the worlds, angels, being more exalted, needed no such restraint, for their own wisdom was a sufficient guide. They were not beings that could bring dishonor to God; all their thoughts were holy; it was no more possible for them than for God Himself to err." —Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 37.

 

[freeindeed2]

Yes. Consider Genesis 2:16-17 and ask yourself if it's moral to disobey God.

And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

So...nine of the commandments are moral commands 7 days a week, 365 days a year, every day, ALL the time...

...but the Sabbath is only 'moral' 24 hours a week...

THINK!

In Christ alone...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Hi Honor

Well yes and no. Children are spanked for unrighteousness. But that does not mean that they have to learn righteousness. The spanking is to help them to obey the parents, who understands better than children...the child will grow to know righteousness, but your spanking may help them to obey what God has already programmed them for through your moral duty to help them. I like what you said..."sinfulness is all about self". And your spanking helps them to understand this, and to obey what they where already programmed for. Look at the following passage.

(Rom 1:19) For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
(Rom 1:20) For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.


To suggest that people have to be taught righteousness becasue it was never inbread is to give God no reason to punish us becasue we where all born as animals. But rather all men are born with some understanding of righteousness. Thus we have no excuse. But righteousness did become obscured through sin.

(Gen 6:5) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
(Gen 6:6) And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Men knew what sin was, but it was very obscured until the law. But the Sabbath was a learned law and not a moral law. No one is born with the desire to keep the 7th day holy. The Sabbath is a learned conviction rather than a moral inbread conviction. When I gave up the day, I did feel guilty. But I had to remind self that it was a learned conviction because of a false idea. Not becasue it was an inbread desire. You yourself never gave any thought to keeping the sabbath from inborn tendencies, but from learned behavor.

(Rom 1:21) For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The passage says mens heart became darken becasue they rejected the truth of God and His righteousness. This proves that men are born with a sense of right and wrong and that men reject the inborn tendencies for righteounsess through the deceitfulness of sin.

AT

If you go to the most remostest places on the earth and find out what the people believe spiritually, most of the time they have a belief in a god or gods and a "semblance" of right or wrong for that particular culture. However, they don't know that it's murder to go and kill rival tribesman, cut off their heads and shrink them. They've never been taught that. As a matter of fact in some cultures this is a way for a man to be accepted as a warrior in his tribe. They don't know in some cultures that it is wrong to have sex with multiple partners or to steal things that doesn't belong to them. They never have been taught those things so they don't know it's wrong. So the inborn tendencies of man who has not been taught the moral ways as we know them can indeed stray from what we know to be right and wrong. What about the verses in Romans. I think God says He will hold those folks accoutable for what they have been given. They were not given any thing to make thise things immoral. They all believe in a god though. They are smart enough to realize that all of this just didn't happen all by itself. The interesting fact though is you will not find any of them that work 7 days a week. They all take off one day for rest and recuperation.

So I go back to what I said before. Sabbath is a taught thing as are all of the other ten commandments. It implies a relationship with the creator just as the other moral laws imply a way to have an acceptable working relationship with their fellow man.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

So...nine of the commandments are moral commands 7 days a week, 365 days a year, every day, ALL the time...

...but the Sabbath is only 'moral' 24 hours a week...

THINK!

In Christ alone...

Please do think my friend. The commandment says six days shalt thou labor and do all thy word but the 7th DAY ( 24 hours of time ) is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. It never ceases to amaze me at how some formers rationalize away God's laws. Laws the Son of God came and died for because they are as eternal as He is.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Avonia]

If you go to the most remostest places on the earth and find out what the people believe spiritually, most of the time they have a belief in a god or gods and a "semblance" of right or wrong for that particular culture. However, they don't know that it's murder to go and kill rival tribesman, cut off their heads and shrink them. They've never been taught that. As a matter of fact in some cultures this is a way for a man to be accepted as a warrior in his tribe. They don't know in some cultures that it is wrong to have sex with multiple partners or to steal things that doesn't belong to them. They never have been taught those things so they don't know it's wrong. So the inborn tendencies of man who has not been taught the moral ways as we know them can indeed stray from what we know to be right and wrong. What about the verses in Romans. I think God says He will hold those folks accoutable for what they have been given. They were not given any thing to make thise things immoral. They all believe in a god though. They are smart enough to realize that all of this just didn't happen all by itself. The interesting fact though is you will not find any of them that work 7 days a week. They all take off one day for rest and recuperation.

So I go back to what I said before. Sabbath is a taught thing as are all of the other ten commandments. It implies a relationship with the creator just as the other moral laws imply a way to have an acceptable working relationship with their fellow man.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Where have you been personally? How long were you there?

Do you think that "spreading the gospel" to these "remote people" has overall been for the good?

I find it interesting to hear you speak on issues around the indigenous peoples of the Americas and then to hear you speak like this.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion and hope we all stay open to learning on all issues.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Where have you been personally? How long were you there?

I spent a year in the jungles of Viet Nam where indigenous people live in a very primitive way. There they do not know what adultery is and if they need something they take it without feeling guilty of stealing. The head hunters of the world live in places like Borneo and some countries of South America.

Do you think that "spreading the gospel" to these "remote people" has overall been for the good?

Yes I do

I find it interesting to hear you speak on issues around the indigenous peoples of the Americas and then to hear you speak like this.

Most of the native Americans believed in a "Great Spirit" who created all things. They were natually for the most part what we would call moral. Living monogamously with one woman, and not taking what you didn't need to live or survive. Most of them also took a day off to rest. They held precious the gift of the earth and all that is in it and never violated the sanctity of nature. They lived in harmony with it.

Maybe these primitive, remote peoples can eventually reach a state of consciousness and technology, as Christian nations, where they can invade other countries with some real weapons.

Most of them have already in the last few decades. Only those who want to hold to their old cultures remain the way they were.

I sense a tipping point where I can choose to say I love you as a child of God, or I can head down another path, seemingly quite common on this forum. I choose the former.

I appreciate you sharing your opinion and hope we all stay open to learning on all issues.

I appreciate the love and I hope you know I Love you as a child of God as well. I don't want to cause anyone here to dislike me personally. I think the main problem we all have here is that we equate disagreement with hate, I don't and I don't think we should conduct our discourse that way. I feel some conflict in life is good as long as learning can take place and we remain open minded enough to let the Holy Spirit work in our lives. If I have offended you in any way I apologise. Sometimes I can be abrasive in my presentation but I mean no offense by it. I just say it the way it is from my perspective.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Please do think my friend. The commandment says six days shalt thou labor and do all thy word but the 7th DAY ( 24 hours of time ) is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. It never ceases to amaze me at how some formers rationalize away God's laws. Laws the Son of God came and died for because they are as eternal as He is.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Careful now. You're saying that if Israel didn't labor six days every week, or if they rested from labor any time during the six days they were breaking the Sabbath and that somehow that is immoral.

This discussion is completely moot except for those who still try to live under the old covenant.

In CHRIST alone...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Careful now. You're saying that if Israel didn't labor six days every week, or if they rested from labor any time during the six days they were breaking the Sabbath and that somehow that is immoral.

This discussion is completely moot except for those who still try to live under the old covenant.

In CHRIST alone...

Free, this surprizes me at you. What you are trying to do here is being dishonest with the word of God. There is nothing in the commandment that says if they rested during the six days of labor that they would be breaking the Sabbath. This is a twist of what it is saying. There is nothing in the commandment that says that they had to actually work six days either. It says "six days shalt thou labor" and when you take that statment with the part that says but the 7th ( actual article ) is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God you know that there are six days to work in but not the 7th. It is set aside as Holy for the Lord.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

Free, this surprizes me at you. What you are trying to do here is being dishonest with the word of God. There is nothing in the commandment that says if they rested during the six days of labor that they would be breaking the Sabbath. This is a twist of what it is saying. There is nothing in the commandment that says that they had to actually work six days either. It says "six days shalt thou labor" and when you take that statment with the part that says but the 7th ( actual article ) is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God you know that there are six days to work in but not the 7th. It is set aside as Holy for the Lord.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Who's the one twisting the text here? It clearly commanded them to work six days and to rest from labor one.

In Christ alone...

 

[Jimlarmore]

Who's the one twisting the text here? It clearly commanded them to work six days and to rest from labor one.

In Christ alone...

It doesn't say work six and rest one, it says work six rest on the 7th day.

Let's examine how you have twisted the scripture here. It's your contention that if they rested on any of the six that were set aside for work that rest would violate the sanctity of the Sabbath. Please find for me and all the interested lurkers anything in the 4th commandment that says that. If it doesn't say that then you've twisted the scripture.

God Bless
Jim Larmoe

 

[Avonia]

I spent a year in the jungles of Viet Nam where indigenous people live in a very primitive way. There they do not know what adultery is and if they need something they take it without feeling guilty of stealing. The head hunters of the world live in places like Borneo and some countries of South America.

(clip)

I appreciate the love and I hope you know I Love you as a child of God as well. I don't want to cause anyone here to dislike me personally. I think the main problem we all have here is that we equate disagreement with hate, I don't and I don't think we should conduct our discourse that way. I feel some conflict in life is good as long as learning can take place and we remain open minded enough to let the Holy Spirit work in our lives. If I have offended you in any way I apologise. Sometimes I can be abrasive in my presentation but I mean no offense by it. I just say it the way it is from my perspective.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

Thanks Jim.

You must have seen this post immediately, because I edited out my own sarcastic remark about Christian nations, weapons, and invasion. I wrote it in a fleeting moment of grumpiness, but it was unnecessary. I edited it out seconds later. And was smiling and lovely again.

I appreciate the tone of your response.

 

[freeindeed2]

It doesn't say work six and rest one, it says work six rest on the 7th day.

Jim, this was not an attempt to assign a different day. It was the principle I was aiming at.

Thank you for acknowledging the command to not rest on the six days.

Let's examine how you have twisted the scripture here. It's your contention that if they rested on any of the six that were set aside for work that rest would violate the sanctity of the Sabbath. Please find for me and all the interested lurkers anything in the 4th commandment that says that.

You're lessening your argument for the Sabbath being somehow 'moral'. Morality applies more than once a week.

Read the command. It commanded Israel to labor and work six days a week and to completely REST from labor and work on the 7th day. It's right there in black and white.

In Christ alone...

 

[Cribstyl]

Searching for what is known as "moral laws." Here is what Hebrew history present as truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Take note that the Talmud was written 200 CE


The Six Orders of the Mishnah (ששה סדרי משנ&#1492

Moed (מוע&#1491


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat

 

[Jimlarmore]

[/b]
Jim, this was not an attempt to assign a different day. It was the principle I was aiming at.

Thank you for acknowledging the command to not rest on the six days.


You're lessening your argument for the Sabbath being somehow 'moral'. Morality applies more than once a week.

See there you go again trying to confuse and obfuscate the issues again. I'm not going to play this game with you my friend.

Read the command. It commanded Israel to labor and work six days a week and to completely REST from labor and work on the 7th day. It's right there in black and white.

In Christ alone...

Yep it sure is. The immorality of breaking the Sabbath is this. God commands we not work on the 7th day of the week. Other texts we find in the Bible tells us that we should call the Sabbath a delight the holy of the Lord.
When we intentionally go against the commandment of God we are being immoral. Immorality is defined as doing something we know is wrong. BTW, these are not the ten suggestions. God is the creator, Holy and Sovereign.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Jimlarmore]

Searching for what is known as "moral laws." Here is what Hebrew history present as truth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

Take note that the Talmud was written 200 CE


The Six Orders of the Mishnah (ששה סדרי משנ&#1492

Moed (מוע&#1491


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat

The Bible is the truth I go by not wikipedia. Wikipedia is a good reference but not the word of God. The Bible tells me that the children of Israel would be a light to the gentiles and evangelize the entire world. The Bible also tells me that if we be in Christ we are Abraham's seed or spiritual Israel. God only covenants with Israel so the new covenant is with spiritual Israel.

That means that what ever was given to Israel was intended for the entire world. The gospel Jesus Christ brought to us as a Jew was for the entire world but it went to the nation of Israel first. When the literal nation of Israel rejected the gospel they were rejected by God. Now Israel is anyone who accepts Christ.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Cribstyl]

The Bible is the truth I go by not wikipedia. Wikipedia is a good reference but not the word of God. The Bible tells me that the children of Israel would be a light to the gentiles and evangelize the entire world. The Bible also tells me that if we be in Christ we are Abraham's seed or spiritual Israel. God only covenants with Israel so the new covenant is with spiritual Israel.

That means that what ever was given to Israel was intended for the entire world.

That's peanut butter, prove it with the bible

The gospel Jesus Christ brought to us as a Jew was for the entire world but it went to the nation of Israel first. When the literal nation of Israel rejected the gospel they were rejected by God. Now Israel is anyone who accepts Christ.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

That's peanut butter, prove it with the bible

When was the new testament written?
Is that important to your faith?
Why are you afraid of Hebrew history outside of the bible?
If I ask you to show where the bible tells you that why dont you post the scriptures?

In peace
CRIB

 

[djconklin]

Who's the one twisting the text here? It clearly commanded them to work six days and to rest from labor one.

That undercuts your previous: "but the Sabbath is only 'moral' 24 hours a week..."

 

[Jimlarmore]

That's peanut butter, prove it with the bible

Here's a little jam with that peanut butter. Even though you tried to obfuscate the truth of these texts before the message is very clear. Christ the Son of David the Son of God came thru Israel as the messiah to be the light to the Gentiles. Isa 60:5 also speaks of this but it's Israel that is to bring forth Christ and Israel was to be the light to the Gentiles.

Isa 60:2-5
2

For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee.
3

And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
4


Lift up thine eyes round about, and see: all they gather themselves together, they come to thee: thy sons shall come from far, and thy daughters shall be nursed at thy side.
5


Then thou shalt see, and flow together, and thine heart shall fear, and be enlarged; because the abundance of the sea shall be converted unto thee, the forces of the Gentiles shall come unto thee.


Isa 49:5-6

5

And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6

And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Acts 13:47

Israel was to be a light to the gentiles as well as we shall see in Acts 13:45-47 which is a repeat of Isa 49:5-6.

45

But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Isa 49:6
48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Enough peanut butter for you?

When was the new testament written?
Is that important to your faith?
Why are you afraid of Hebrew history outside of the bible?
If I ask you to show where the bible tells you that why dont you post the scriptures?

In peace
CRIB

I'm not afraid of hebrew history. I just don't take much stock in what they claimed or said. The hebrews were not all that great at getting things straight from day one. They virtually rejected/killed every prophet that God sent to them including the Messiah Himself. They believed in things that their own Bible's didn't support like life after death.

The new Testament was written nearly 100 years after Christ was born and yes it's vitally important to my faith but you know what I don't take just the new testament. I take the entire Bible to tell me the truth and never dismiss a part of the Old testament by saying that it was part of the old covenant. The only things that changed between the old and the new covenants was the ceremonial and some of the civil laws of the Jews.

I generally do post scripture when I have to or am challenged. I don't say something is in the Bible unless it's there.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[freeindeed2]

See there you go again trying to confuse and obfuscate the issues again. I'm not going to play this game with you my friend.

The 'game' has been being played for almost two thousand years. Those who are joined to the law are trying to convince everyone else that they are Israel and under obligation to what they were never even commanded. Those joined with Christ recognize the error of the first group and recognize Christ as their righteousness.

It's not really that confusing unless you're trying to peer out at Reality from behind the veil of the old covenant.

Yep it sure is. The immorality of breaking the Sabbath is this. God commands we not work on the 7th day of the week. Other texts we find in the Bible tells us that we should call the Sabbath a delight the holy of the Lord.

This does not in any way demonstrate the Sabbath as posessing 'moral' attributes.

When we intentionally go against the commandment of God we are being immoral. Immorality is defined as doing something we know is wrong. BTW, these are not the ten suggestions. God is the creator, Holy and Sovereign.

'Heathens' inherently know that killing is wrong. Yet not one has ever inherently known that Israel was commanded to rest on the 7th day of the week and adopted it as a practice they should do themselves because it 'just seems the right thing to do'. It demonstrates the festival/ceremonial nature of the Sabbath rather than its morality as demonstrated in Lev. 23.

In CHRIST alone...