Is the fourth commandment a moral issue?

[RND]

Adam disobedience was sin which caused death on all mankind, It's correct to say that disobedience to God is sin but, any action against the image of God is sin. inhospitality and Sexual immorality was the reason for destroying Sodom an Gomorrah.

So then God caused a flood on the world because of sin (disobedience)?

How did those killed in the flood know they were being disobedient?

What God taught us through Cain is that SIN want to rule over us but we should rule over it. So right from the start, SIN is whenever a person action is contrary to the mark of Holiness or righteousness.

How does a person know what this "mark of Holiness or righteousness" is or when they aren't meeting this "standard?"
How did those killed in the flood know they weren't meeting this standard?

"School of hard knocks son" But Id die for you to live in Jesus.

That's nice Peter. I think you would convince me more if I saw a change in your personality.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Some statements that have been made and some questions that have been ask in this thread:

Originally Posted by Jimlarmore
The law existed before Sinai and Gen 26:5 prooves that point.

Reply by Sophia7:

All it proves is that God gave Abraham some commandments. It does not prove that He gave Abraham the Ten Commandments. Big difference, especially since the Bible says that the law was not given before Sinai:...

Adventist theology is blind to the possibility that the term commandments in the Bible doesn't always refer to the Decalogue. A lack of discernment on this issue makes way for the false accusations about antinomianism and "cheap grace" and "sinning with perceived impunity" that we see so often around here.

Additional response by Crib:

When you (and others) get backed in a corner, you start that "question game" that "reasons in" the law and sabbath as given to Adam. The worse thing about that is, you render the word of God incomplete. So you (and others) rely on constant commentary that often contradicts God's prophets and apostles.

Additional response by RND:

Romans 6:23; For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When did this become true? Before or after the flood?

Additional response by Crib:

So when man was denied access to the tree of life, all men will die in the flesh because ADAM passed down death.

Another issue we have to contend with is the second death. The soul that sinneth it shall die.

When each man commits sin he will die spiritually if he's in judge, unless by faith he recieves the gift of eternal life and become spiritually alive being raised up with Jesus. (Crib, I hope I understand your grammer correctly here.)

Dont delay to show us how you tie in the 10 commandment......I know you will try ask me a bunch question before posting isolated text plus commentary. CUT THE CHASE

Final comments by RND:

So then God caused a flood on the world because of sin (disobedience)?

How did those killed in the flood know they were being disobedient?....

How does a person know what this "mark of Holiness or righteousness" is or when they aren't meeting this "standard?" How did those killed in the flood know they weren't meeting this standard?

I will now make some comments followed by some text.

I must say first that I believe that our Creator is a God of Love. As a God of Love He doesn't play favorites. He is completely fair, in all ways, with all of His created children.

That being said; There could be no discrepancy in how Adam and Eve were judged as compared to ANY who followed, including those before the flood, and after the flood, including you and me.

Adam and Eve had no unfair advantage over anyone since creation just because they saw God and sopke with Him face to face. They, like everyone else since creation, they had to by faith, take God at His word. Adam was not present when all the rest of creation was created by God. Both Adam and Eve had to belive by faith that God had created them because neither of them saw the other being created.

Are you all with me so far???

Now lets consider how those who lived before the flood could have possibly known the Law of God. (You might want to refresh your memory by reading the account of things leading up to the flood in Gen. 6:5-12.) In Gen. 6:13 we find God's explaination to Noah why the earth was going to be destroyed. That explination is followed by God's instructions to Noah how to build the ark and why it was to be built. Then God makes a "covenent" with Noah and gives the conditions of that covenant.

For just a moment lets go back to Gen. 6:8; "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord." Please note that it was by "grace" that Noah was saved, and those with him, from the flood. It is therefore reasonable that those who were lost were lost by the rejection of that same grace. Ergo; All, from Adam on down to the time of the flood, were saved or lost through the acceptance or rejection of faith in God and His grace.

The argument has also been made that perhaps the "law" as known to the antediluvians was not the same as what we now call the "Ten Commandments." I must now respectfully disagree. For the reason of my disagreement lets first go to Matt. 22:35-40, for Christ own words;

"Then one of them, which wasa lawyer, ask him a question, tempting him saying, Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and all with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

PLEASE NOTE: The first four commandments of the Ten Commandments are encapsulated in Christ discription/deffinition of the "greatest" commandment. The last six commandments of the Ten Commandments are encapsulated in the discription/deffinition given by Christ of the second "great" commandment.

Both what we call the Ten Commandments, as well as what Christ gave as the "two greatest" commandments, are founded on exactly the same biblical principals.

Ergo: Neither contradicts the other in any way.

Now I must ask one simple question: IS GOD FAIR or UNFAIR?

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
You are assuming that is what Paul meant. He means that until the law was written on stone vs. being transmitted orally. They knew before Sinai that it was wrong to kill (Abel and Cain), not to commit adultery (Abraham and his wife Sarah vs. Pharoah), wrong to worship other gods, etc..

Crib: I see and read what you guys have been presenting I have heard it before, but that not bible that t'reason.

Which item listed isn't in the Bible?

 

[Jimlarmore]

When you really look at the foundation of this and most of the debates on the law what you find is it's all really over the Sabbath commandment. So many try to rationalize away God's requirement that we celebrate the 7th day. What I don't understand is why there is so much adversion to celebrating the Sabbath. God asks us for 1/7 th of our time each week to come and commune with Him. To set aside the worries and cares of every day hustling and bustling of life so we can recharge our bodies and souls with His Spirit.

Today is the "preparation" day. I sincerely wish all of you a blessed Sabbath rest after sundown this evening and tomorrow.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[sentipente]

When you really look at the foundation of this and most of the debates on the law what you find is it's all really over the Sabbath commandment. So many try to rationalize away God's requirement that we celebrate the 7th day. re

Maybe that is the problem. There is not a divine requirement that we should celebrate the 7th day. At best, we have a request that we rest on the 7th day and church attendance violates that request.

 

[Jimlarmore]

Maybe that is the problem. There is not a divine requirement that we should celebrate the 7th day. At best, we have a request that we rest on the 7th day and church attendance violates that request.

Please read Ex 20:8-11, it is most definetely a divine requirement. BTW, please show how church attendance violates a requirement of rest.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[sentipente]

There is no divine requirement to celebrate the 7th day.

 

[Jimlarmore]

There is no divine requirement to celebrate the 7th day.

Ok, well , if that is the way you believe then so be it. Ignoring God's word is serious though. Discussion over with.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[sentipente]

Ok, well , if that is the way you believe then so be it. Ignoring God's word is serious though. Discussion over with.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

It should be easy for you to produce the divine requirement here. Go for it.

 

[Jimlarmore]

It should be easy for you to produce the divine requirement here. Go for it.

I am not debating this with you senti. I know your style of dialog and it's not to learn anything but seems to seek to impune or confuse. However, for the serious seekers of truth who may be genuinely curious about your claim I will show how there is a divine requirement to observe the Sabbath. It's found in the 4th commandment of Ex 20.

These words were spoken directly by God from the smoke on Mt. Horeb in the hearing of the entire congregation of the children of Israel.

8

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9

Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
10

But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God,In it thou shalt not do any work thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Notice the large bolded words. These are direct commands and are thus constituting a "divine requirement" since God is divine and spoke it directly from the mount.

God Bless
Jim Larmore

 

[Cribstyl]

So then God caused a flood on the world because of sin (disobedience)?

How did those killed in the flood know they were being disobedient?

Your questions seems constraining to me. I said ADAM was disobedient. (to the commandment he was given)

Gen 6 shows us itemized sins, indicating to us that man denerated and from the image of God. Texts reads that God did not want His spirit in man long.
Sorry, Not one clue about sabbath breaking or the 10commandments given as law.

The peoples transgression are listed and God's reason for the flood is listed. Those who want more details should first see what other prophets and apostles say about man from creation.

Asking me how did they know this or that, does not mean that the were given commandments. But that's how your teachings are peiced together, "by reasoning in what not written".

What is understood is that God created man after His image, (Holy, righteous) and man thought that he was wise, just as Cain did when he killed Abel......So when I post Rom1 to show how Paul explain how God's wrath and judgment fell upon men, you dont care about texts that dont support sin before the law.

How does a person know what this "mark of Holiness or righteousness" is or when they aren't meeting this "standard?"
How did those killed in the flood know they weren't meeting this standard?

When God said....Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Good and evil are choices that humanity makes from when Adam ate from the tree. "being one of us" is not being Godlike, but rather is making your own decision on matters of good and evil, life and death. All men have a choice over their lives. God said that Cain could have chosen to do good. God said "Cain, sin wants to rule over you, but you must rule over it".
There was not a law, and there did not have to be a law. Cain did not have to be educated about killing before he chose to do evil over good. The tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil opened humanity up to make choices.

That's nice Peter. I think you would convince me more if I saw a change in your personality.

Dude, God's still working on me.:o If I offend you let me know what I need to do to resolve it. (I went back 10 days in this thread to see if I need to take back poor choice of words to you.) Hey I'm a thug Christian. pray for me


CRIB

 

[Cribstyl]

Let's replay what is being said....

#204
I said this

The scripture in question says.....ESV - Rom 5:13 -for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.


The question used to ignor that lesson is.....

Then why did God tell Cain that "sin lieth at the door"?

Why should a question negate what is written about "sin and the law"?
The fact stated by Paul confirms what is in the scriptures from Adam to Moses, "the law" was not given by God until Moses recieved them.

then you said

Originally Posted by djconklin
You are assuming that is what Paul meant. He means that until the law was written on stone vs. being transmitted orally.

They knew before Sinai that it was wrong to kill (Abel and Cain), not to commit adultery (Abraham and his wife Sarah vs. Pharoah), wrong to worship other gods, etc..

Then when you added other arguments I said

I see and read what you guys have been presenting I have heard it before, but that not bible, that t'reason.

Now you ask

Which item listed isn't in the Bible?

You link the 10 commandments from Cain to Abraham to Joseph by "question"and "reasoning" without clear bible text.

CRIB

 

[RND]

Your questions seems constraining to me. I said ADAM was disobedient. (to the commandment he was given)

I'm sorry Crib. Could it be that you are constrained because the question shows the limitations of your thoughts?

Gen 6 shows us itemized sins, indicating to us that man denerated and from the image of God. Texts reads that God did not want His spirit in man long.

How did those killed in the flood know what their "itemized sins" were?

Sorry, Not one clue about sabbath breaking or the 10commandments given as law.

Why are you constantly looking over your shoulder for this brick to hit you in the head? I don't have it in my hand. I haven't brought up either subject with you in this brief exchange.

The peoples transgression are listed and God's reason for the flood is listed. Those who want more details should first see what other prophets and apostles say about man from creation.

So are the "peoples transgression" sin?

Asking me how did they know this or that, does not mean that the were given commandments. But that's how your teachings are peiced together, "by reasoning in what not written".

What can we infer from what we read in scripture or should we not infer anything? Should we look for the deeper spiritual meaning in scripture only when it suits our fancy?

What is understood is that God created man after His image, (Holy, righteous) and man thought that he was wise, just as Cain did when he killed Abel......

So when we think we are being wise we are really being disobedient to God?

So when I post Rom1 to show how Paul explain how God's wrath and judgment fell upon men, you dont care about texts that dont support sin before the law.

Oh, sure I do. But here's the rub I have:

Was God's Ten Commandments a revelation of His character before they were given to man?

An example might be this. Before the flood people were murderous and sexually immoral doing all sorts of wicked things, but likewise people are doing these same things today.

Did God's law change from the flood to now?

When God said....Gen 3:22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Good and evil are choices that humanity makes from when Adam ate from the tree. "being one of us" is not being Godlike, but rather is making your own decision on matters of good and evil, life and death. All men have a choice over their lives. God said that Cain could have chosen to do good.

There was not a law, and there did not have to be a law. Cain did not have to be educated about killing before he chose to do evil over good. The tree of Knowlege of Good and Evil opened humanity up to make choices.

Well, I must not understand then. The Bible tells me that sin is trangression against God's law (God's commandment). But you are saying that people sinned but did not have a law to break.

This is very confusing because I don't understand how God can pass judgment on some for breaking a law that did not exist. If there was no law against murder or fornication then why the flood?

Dude, God's still working on me.:o If I offend you let me (know) what I need to do to resolve it. (I went back 10 days in this thread to see if I need to take back poor choice of words to you. If you want to judge somebody, get a mirror.) ManUpSon.

See 1 Corinthians 13.

 

[sentipente]

I'm sorry Crib. Could it be that you are constrained because the question shows the limitations of your thoughts?

You just can't help it, can you? He did not say he was constrained. He said your questions seemed to be constraining. But you had to take a dig at him. Shameful.

 

[RND]

You just can't help it, can you? He did not say he was constrained. He said your questions seemed to be constraining. But you had to take a dig at him. Shameful.

Senti, the question I asked is relative to the thought of his question, not to him personally. However, if it is offensive to Crib I certainly will re-word it.

 

[Cribstyl]

Notice the Question game (Qgame) to establish what he believes, then after playing fetch for days, they either insult you or get offended.



The truth is, we dont have to agree......We should respect each other.

Thanks Senti

I'll take double of 1Cor 13 and let someonelse play his Qgames


CRIB

 

[djconklin]

You link the 10 commandments from Cain to Abraham to Joseph by "question"and "reasoning" without clear bible text.

First of all, I never linked the 10C from Cain to Abraham ... You read that concept into the questions that I asked.

1) I start with an assumption that God is consistent when He has the HS inspire writers to write and that thus what they write is consistent as well.
2) I do not start with an assumption that all roads lead to God so any road you take will get you to Him.
3) Paul wrote that where there is no law there is no sin--I trust that you know the text (I have been wrong before, but ...)
4) So, when God tell Cain that "sin lieth at the door" (a biblical text) and Cain doesn't ask what is "sin" that means that he already knew that his hatred for his brother was a sin and that killing Abel would be a sin as well.
5) The punishment of the antedeluvians by the Flood tells us that there must have been some sort of standard by which they were judged and held accountable.
6) Abraham's experience in passing off his wife as his sister and the results indicate that even the Gentiles understood that they were not to commit adultery.
7) The punishment of Sodoma Gommorrah also confirms the point made in #5--they knew that they were sinning.
8) The desire of the COI to punish the Amelkites shows that they knew that the Amelkites knew that what they were doing was wrong.

Therefore, what Paul is saying is that "until the law was written on stone vs. being passed down orally" not that there was literally no law before Sinai.

 

[djconklin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sentipente
You just can't help it, can you? He did not say he was constrained. He said your questions seemed to be constraining. But you had to take a dig at him. Shameful.

Senti, the question I asked is relative to the thought of his question, not to him personally. However, if it is offensive to Crib I certainly will re-word it.

I didn't read RND question as shameful--it was a good observation. Imagine someone holding up a coin and you only see one side--you have limit which affects how you will see things (does the coin have a heads and a tails or is it two of the same? How do you know?). Or, the classic case of the blind men checking out an elephant. I'm not surprised to see that RND was judged and condemned.

 

[Eila]

3) Paul wrote that where there is no law there is no sin--I trust that you know the text (I have been wrong before, but ...)

Can you point out that text and shows that where there is no law there is no sin? I have not found it.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
3) Paul wrote that where there is no law there is no sin--I trust that you know the text (I have been wrong before, but ...)

Can you point out that text and shows that where there is no law there is no sin? I have not found it.

Then I'll have to vigourously spank whoever taught you the Bible.

Romans 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Note also:

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil

Genesis 18:20
And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;