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Is the Eucharist cannibalism?

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Xeno.of.athens

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Cannibalism implies here the actual chewing, swallowing, and metabolizing of flesh and blood either after or during the killing of a human being; at least, if we stick to definition #1.


Catholics do not do any of this in the Eucharist. Though Christ is substantially present—body, blood, soul and divinity—in the Eucharist, the accidents of bread and wine remain. Here it is important to define terms. When the Church teaches the bread and wine at Mass are transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, we have to understand what this means. The word, transubstantiation, literally means “transformation of the substance.” “Substance” refers to that which makes a thing essentially what it is. Thus, “substance” and “essence” are synonyms. For example, man is essentially comprised of body, soul, intellect, and will. If you remove any one of these, he is no longer a human person. The accidents or accidentals would be things like hair color, eye color, size, weight, etc. One can change any of these and there would be no change in the essence or substance of the person.

In the Eucharist, after the priest consecrates the bread and wine and they are, in fact, transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, our Lord is then entirely present. Neither bread nor wine remains. However, the accidents of bread and wine (size, weight, taste, texture) do remain. Hence, the essential reason why Catholics are not guilty of cannibalism is the fact that we do not receive our Lord in a cannibalistic form. We receive him in the form of bread and wine. The two are qualitatively different.

To dive a bit deeper into this, I would suggest there are at least six reasons why the Eucharist and cannibalism are qualitatively, or essentially, different things.

1. In cannibalism, the person consumed is, generally speaking, killed. Jesus is not killed. We receive him in his resurrected body and we do not affect him in the least. In fact, he is not changed in the slightest. He changes us! This is far from cannibalism.
2. In cannibalism, only part of the victim is consumed. One does not eat the bones, sinews, etc. In the Eucharist, we consume every bit of the Lord, eyes, hair, blood, bones, etc. But again, I emphasize that we do so under the appearances of bread and wine. This is essentially different than cannibalism, which leads to our next point:
3. In cannibalism, the accidents of blood and flesh are consumed. One must tear flesh, drink blood, etc. In the Eucharist, we only consume the accidents of bread and wine. This is not cannibalism.
4. In cannibalism, one only consumes a body, not a person. The person and the soul of the victim would have departed. In the Eucharist, we consume the entire person of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. One cannot separate Christ’s body from his Divine Person. Thus, this is a spiritual communion as well as a physical consuming. We become one with Christ on a mystical level in this sacrament. This is far from cannibalism.
5. In cannibalism, one only receives temporal nourishment that is fleeting. In the Eucharist, we receive the divine life of God through faith and receiving our Lord well-disposed, i.e. we receive everlasting life (cf. John 6:52-55). This is essentially different than cannibalism.
6. In cannibalism, once one eats the flesh of the victim, it is gone forever. In the Eucharist, we can consume him every day and, as mentioned in #1, we do not change him one bit. He remains the same.

Final Thoughts

One always has to be careful when applying terms and concepts to God. Many people miss the mark with regard to the faith because they make the mistake of applying terms in a human way to God who is infinite. We could speak of Mormons who claim God, the Father, has a physical body because the Scriptures speak of God’s “back parts,” in Exodus, or “the hand of Lord,” the “eyes of the Lord,” etc. You’ve probably heard the classic rejoinder to these Mormon claims: “Psalm 91 refers to God’s ‘feathers and wings’. Does this mean God is some sort of bird?”

The error here, of course, is rooted in interpreting texts that were not intended to be used in a strict, literal sense, as if they were. “Back parts” have to mean “back parts,” right?

When it comes to the Trinity, some who deny this essential teaching will claim Christians are teaching God to be “three beings” because we say God is “three persons.” However, person, as it relates to God, does not mean there are three beings. There is an essential difference between “person” as it relates to God, and “person” as it relates to men and angels.

We could cite a litany of examples containing similar problems.

When it gets down to brass tacks, the nay-sayers who reject the Eucharist, and most specifically, those who accuse us Catholics of cannibalism because we say we “consume” the Lord in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul, and divinity, fail to understand what we actually mean by consuming the Lord. They end up objecting just as the unbelieving “Jews” of John 6:52, who said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

If you are thinking about a cannibalistic blood-meal, he can’t. But if you understand, as Jesus said, “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail, the words I have spoken to you are Spirit and life,” then you understand. The Eucharist represents a miracle confected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

God can do that.

[Are Catholics Cannibals?]
 

BobRyan

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Cannibalism implies here the actual chewing, swallowing, and metabolizing of flesh and blood either after or during the killing of a human being; at least, if we stick to definition #1.


Catholics do not do any of this in the Eucharist.
Agreed. It is most certainly not cannibalism. Even Catholic documents admit that when you look at it at the molecular level under microscope - it is still just bread.

And the symbolism for it is fully explained in John 6 regarding "The bread that came down from heaven" as my flesh where no one bites Christ and no one sees bread falling out of heaven.

Deut 8:3 explains that "bread falling down out of heaven" symbolism this way
"3 And He humbled you and let you go hungry, and fed you with the manna which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, in order to make you understand that man shall not live on bread alone, but man shall live on every WORD that comes from the mouth of the Lord."
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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And the symbolism for it is fully explained in John 6 regarding "The bread that came down from heaven" as my flesh where no one bites Christ and no one sees bread falling out of heaven.
Of course, the Lord, Jesus Christ came down from heaven, and he is the true bread from heaven whose flesh Christians are called to eat and whose blood they are called to drink, and this is no metaphor, the language is graphic and literal.

John Chapter six
22 Next morning, the multitude was still waiting on the opposite shore. They had seen that there was only one boat there, and that Jesus did not embark with his disciples on this boat, but left his disciples to go back alone.
23 But now, since other boats from Tiberias had put in near the place where they ate the loaves when the Lord gave thanks over them,
24 the multitude, finding neither Jesus nor his disciples there, embarked on these boats in their turn, and went back to Capharnaum to look for Jesus.
25 And when they found that he had crossed the lake, they asked him, Master, when didst thou make thy way here?
26 Jesus answered them, Believe me, if you are looking for me now, it is not because of the miracles you have seen; it is because you were fed with the loaves, and had your fill.
27 You should not work to earn food which perishes in the using. Work to earn food which affords, continually, eternal life, such food as the Son of Man will give you; God, the Father, has authorized him.
28 What shall we do, then, they asked him, so as to work in God’s service?
29 Jesus answered them, This is the service God asks of you, to believe in the Man whom he has sent.
30 So they said to him, Why then, what miracle canst thou do? We must see it before we trust thee; what canst thou effect?✻
31 Our fathers had manna to eat in the desert; as the scripture says, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.✻
32 Jesus said to them, Believe me when I tell you this; the bread that comes from heaven is not what Moses gave you. The real bread from heaven is given only by my Father.
33 God’s gift of bread comes down from heaven and gives life to the whole world.
34 Then, Lord, they said, give us this bread all the while.
35 But Jesus told them, It is I who am the bread of life; he who comes to me will never be hungry, he who has faith in me will never know thirst.
36 (But you, as I have told you, though you have seen me, do not believe in me.)✻
37 All that the Father has entrusted to me will come to me, and him who comes to me I will never cast out.
38 It is the will of him who sent me, not my own will, that I have come down from heaven to do;
39 and he who sent me would have me keep without loss, and raise up at the last day, all he has entrusted to me.
40 Yes, this is the will of him who sent me, that all those who believe in the Son when they see him should enjoy eternal life; I am to raise them up at the last day.
41 The Jews were by now complaining of his saying, I am myself the bread which has come down from heaven.
42 Is not this Jesus, they said, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother are well known to us? What does he mean by saying, I have come down from heaven?✻
43 Jesus answered them, Do not whisper thus to one another.
44 Nobody can come to me without being attracted towards me by the Father who sent me, so that I can raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the book of the prophets, And they shall all have the Lord for their teacher;✻ everyone who listens to the Father and learns, comes to me.
46 (Not that anyone has seen the Father, except him who comes from God; he alone has seen the Father.)
47 Believe me when I tell you this; the man who has faith in me enjoys eternal life.
48 It is I who am the bread of life.
49 Your fathers, who ate manna in the desert, died none the less;
50 the bread which comes down from heaven is such that he who eats of it never dies.
51 I myself am the living bread that has come down from heaven.
52 If anyone eats of this bread, he shall live for ever. And now, what is this bread which I am to give? It is my flesh, given for the life of the world.
53 Then the Jews fell to disputing with one another, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
54 Whereupon Jesus said to them, Believe me when I tell you this; you can have no life in yourselves, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, and drink his blood.
55 The man who eats my flesh and drinks my blood enjoys eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
56 My flesh is real food, my blood is real drink.
57 He who eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, lives continually in me, and I in him.
58 As I live because of the Father, the living Father who has sent me, so he who eats me will live, in his turn, because of me.
59 Such is the bread which has come down from heaven; it is not as it was with your fathers, who ate manna and died none the less; the man who eats this bread will live eternally.
60 He said all this while he was teaching in the synagogue, at Capharnaum.
61 And there were many of his disciples who said, when they heard it, This is strange talk, who can be expected to listen to it?
62 But Jesus, inwardly aware that his disciples were complaining over it, said to them, Does this try your faith?
63 What will you make of it, if you see the Son of Man ascending to the place where he was before?
64 Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life.✻
65 But there are some, even among you, who do not believe. Jesus knew from the first which were those who did not believe, and which of them was to betray him.
66 And he went on to say, That is what I meant when I told you that nobody can come to me unless he has received the gift from my Father.
67 After this, many of his disciples went back to their old ways, and walked no more in his company.
68 Whereupon Jesus said to the twelve, Would you, too, go away?
69 Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom should we go? Thy words are the words of eternal life;
70 we have learned to believe, and are assured that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.✻
71 Jesus answered them, Have I not chosen all twelve of you? And one of you is a devil.
72 He was speaking of Judas son of Simon, the Iscariot, who was one of the twelve, and was to betray him.
 
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BobRyan

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Of course, the Lord, Jesus Christ came down from heaven,
indeed -- but not as literal bread

and he is the true bread from heaven whose flesh Christians are called to eat
John 6 uses that very symbolism - and neither the faithful followers of Christ nor the faithless ones in John 6 bite Christ

It is an observed detail IN the chapter rather than a "joke" in the chapter.

In that very chapter Christ "eating literal flesh is worthless"

John 6:
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.”

.... 58 This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever.”​
note: "The details"​
-- Christ uses the symbolism of bread coming down out of heaven - in fact bread that ALREADY came down out of heaven. Which is using the symbol of manna - and using Christ in the symbol of bread - nobody thinks those in John 6 were seeing literal bread falling down out of heaven - obviously.​
-- Christ said the real literal way gaining eternal life - is to "believe IN Him" - rather than to claim you see literal bread falling out of heaven.​

But pointing to these "inconvenient details" is not "a joke - simply because it is a detail one may wish to ignore"

62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the WORDS that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”​
Here Jesus points again to 'His WORDS' that are the source of life - they are SPIRIT and are LIFE -- and the "Spirit gives LIFE"

Jesus then goes pointedly to the 12 saying this
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have WORDS of eternal life. 69 And we have already believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”​

Peter (who also is not stated to be literally biting Christ as if literally eating Christ is the point of the teaching) admits to getting the point - that Jesus is talking about His WORDS as the source of life. and that simply eating literal flesh is not the real subject of His teaching.

NOTICING these "details" in the text is not "a joke because those details are inconvenient to a given POV" - rather they are the actual details IN the text.
 
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ozso

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It seems like Catholics make a huge production of things like the transubstantiation, and then spend the rest of the time making disclaimers regarding the inevitable conclusions that occur.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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It seems like Catholics make a huge production of things like the transubstantiation, and then spend the rest of the time making disclaimers regarding the inevitable conclusions that occur.
That is incorrect. There is no "huge production". The term transubstantiation is merely an apt word to be used in explaining the real presence, it is not a formal definition of a fundamentally mysterious and miraculous process that God (the Holy Spirit) effects in the Holy Eucharist.

And the inevitable conclusions to which you refer are nothing more than the erroneous speculations of protestants offered up as a protestant attempt to ridicule the Holy Eucharist.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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and neither the faithful followers of Christ nor the faithless ones in John 6 bite Christ because He says in that very chapter "eating literal flesh is worthless"
This is an absurdist's joke rather than a serious comment on the meaning of verse 64.

A better, more sober, and serious explanation is offered here.
John 6:64 Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life.​
If we understand ‘the flesh’ as referring to our Lord’s flesh, we must suppose him to mean ‘the flesh without spirit, without life’, condemning the folly of those hearers who imagined that he had been speaking of his dead body in all that he said above. But it is possible to understand ‘the flesh’ in a different sense altogether, the sense in which it is contrasted, throughout the New Testament, with ‘the spirit’. In this sense it denotes the natural as opposed to the supernatural man, and especially human wisdom as opposed to divine revelation (cf. 8.15 below). The sentence will then mean, that the mystery of the Holy Eucharist must be approached by faith, not by human reasoning.
 
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ozso

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That is incorrect. There is no "huge production". The term transubstantiation is merely an apt word to be used in explaining the real presence, it is not a formal definition of a fundamentally mysterious and miraculous process that God (the Holy Spirit) effects in the Holy Eucharist.

And the inevitable conclusions to which you refer are nothing more than the erroneous speculations of protestants offered up as a protestant attempt to ridicule the Holy Eucharist.
I wasn't talking about the term "transubstantiation". Protestants shouldn't have a problem accepting the supernatural presence of the Lord as they offen quote "where two or three are gathered, there I am in their midst" and how the presence of the Lord is felt in the sanctuary or room where they've gathered. They're saying the Lord is literally right there among them. The presence of the Lord among them and in the Eucharist is readily accepted. It's even said that those who take the Eucharist in an unworthy manner are subject to death. So they must be objecting to dogma which goes beyond that.
 
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FireDragon76

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This is an absurdist's joke rather than a serious comment on the meaning of verse 64.

A better, more sober, and serious explanation is offered here.
John 6:64 Only the spirit gives life; the flesh is of no avail; and the words I have been speaking to you are spirit, and life.​
If we understand ‘the flesh’ as referring to our Lord’s flesh, we must suppose him to mean ‘the flesh without spirit, without life’, condemning the folly of those hearers who imagined that he had been speaking of his dead body in all that he said above. But it is possible to understand ‘the flesh’ in a different sense altogether, the sense in which it is contrasted, throughout the New Testament, with ‘the spirit’. In this sense it denotes the natural as opposed to the supernatural man, and especially human wisdom as opposed to divine revelation (cf. 8.15 below). The sentence will then mean, that the mystery of the Holy Eucharist must be approached by faith, not by human reasoning.

Yes, the Lord's Supper is "spiritual food". "The flesh profits nothing", is a response to people thinking in natural terms, as food for physical nourishment. But it's not a denial of the Lord's Supper as a means of grace.

John Calvin read that passage in more or less the same manner, and his was the most rationalistic interpretation of the sacrament, next to Zwingli's memorialism, which denied the sacrament was a means of grace.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Catholic dogma. I'm sure you're more familiar with it than I am. What do Catholics say or do regarding the Eucharist that Protestants object to?
Not all protestants object to it, but many do - Catholics teach that the host (bread) and precious blood (wine) are the real body of Christ and the real blood of Christ. Not metaphors of the body and blood of Christ.
 
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eleos1954

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Cannibalism implies here the actual chewing, swallowing, and metabolizing of flesh and blood either after or during the killing of a human being; at least, if we stick to definition #1.


Catholics do not do any of this in the Eucharist. Though Christ is substantially present—body, blood, soul and divinity—in the Eucharist, the accidents of bread and wine remain. Here it is important to define terms. When the Church teaches the bread and wine at Mass are transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ, we have to understand what this means. The word, transubstantiation, literally means “transformation of the substance.” “Substance” refers to that which makes a thing essentially what it is. Thus, “substance” and “essence” are synonyms. For example, man is essentially comprised of body, soul, intellect, and will. If you remove any one of these, he is no longer a human person. The accidents or accidentals would be things like hair color, eye color, size, weight, etc. One can change any of these and there would be no change in the essence or substance of the person.

In the Eucharist, after the priest consecrates the bread and wine and they are, in fact, transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, our Lord is then entirely present. Neither bread nor wine remains. However, the accidents of bread and wine (size, weight, taste, texture) do remain. Hence, the essential reason why Catholics are not guilty of cannibalism is the fact that we do not receive our Lord in a cannibalistic form. We receive him in the form of bread and wine. The two are qualitatively different.

To dive a bit deeper into this, I would suggest there are at least six reasons why the Eucharist and cannibalism are qualitatively, or essentially, different things.

1. In cannibalism, the person consumed is, generally speaking, killed. Jesus is not killed. We receive him in his resurrected body and we do not affect him in the least. In fact, he is not changed in the slightest. He changes us! This is far from cannibalism.
2. In cannibalism, only part of the victim is consumed. One does not eat the bones, sinews, etc. In the Eucharist, we consume every bit of the Lord, eyes, hair, blood, bones, etc. But again, I emphasize that we do so under the appearances of bread and wine. This is essentially different than cannibalism, which leads to our next point:
3. In cannibalism, the accidents of blood and flesh are consumed. One must tear flesh, drink blood, etc. In the Eucharist, we only consume the accidents of bread and wine. This is not cannibalism.
4. In cannibalism, one only consumes a body, not a person. The person and the soul of the victim would have departed. In the Eucharist, we consume the entire person of Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity. One cannot separate Christ’s body from his Divine Person. Thus, this is a spiritual communion as well as a physical consuming. We become one with Christ on a mystical level in this sacrament. This is far from cannibalism.
5. In cannibalism, one only receives temporal nourishment that is fleeting. In the Eucharist, we receive the divine life of God through faith and receiving our Lord well-disposed, i.e. we receive everlasting life (cf. John 6:52-55). This is essentially different than cannibalism.
6. In cannibalism, once one eats the flesh of the victim, it is gone forever. In the Eucharist, we can consume him every day and, as mentioned in #1, we do not change him one bit. He remains the same.

Final Thoughts

One always has to be careful when applying terms and concepts to God. Many people miss the mark with regard to the faith because they make the mistake of applying terms in a human way to God who is infinite. We could speak of Mormons who claim God, the Father, has a physical body because the Scriptures speak of God’s “back parts,” in Exodus, or “the hand of Lord,” the “eyes of the Lord,” etc. You’ve probably heard the classic rejoinder to these Mormon claims: “Psalm 91 refers to God’s ‘feathers and wings’. Does this mean God is some sort of bird?”

The error here, of course, is rooted in interpreting texts that were not intended to be used in a strict, literal sense, as if they were. “Back parts” have to mean “back parts,” right?

When it comes to the Trinity, some who deny this essential teaching will claim Christians are teaching God to be “three beings” because we say God is “three persons.” However, person, as it relates to God, does not mean there are three beings. There is an essential difference between “person” as it relates to God, and “person” as it relates to men and angels.

We could cite a litany of examples containing similar problems.

When it gets down to brass tacks, the nay-sayers who reject the Eucharist, and most specifically, those who accuse us Catholics of cannibalism because we say we “consume” the Lord in the Eucharist, body, blood, soul, and divinity, fail to understand what we actually mean by consuming the Lord. They end up objecting just as the unbelieving “Jews” of John 6:52, who said, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”

If you are thinking about a cannibalistic blood-meal, he can’t. But if you understand, as Jesus said, “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail, the words I have spoken to you are Spirit and life,” then you understand. The Eucharist represents a miracle confected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

God can do that.

[Are Catholics Cannibals?]

substance

the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

substance is a physical thing .... no getting around the definition of substance.

What is the Greek word for transubstantiation?

Transubstantiation (Latin: transubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of the Blood of Christ".
 
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BobRyan

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and he is the true bread from heaven whose flesh Christians are called to eat
John 6 uses that very symbolism - and neither the faithful followers of Christ nor the faithless ones in John 6 bite Christ

It is an observed detail IN the chapter rather than a "joke" in the chapter.

In that very chapter Christ says in effect - "eating literal flesh is worthless" vs 63 (a verse you are not touching apparently)

John 6:
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

51 I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats from this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I will give for the life of the world also is My flesh.”

.... 58 This is the bread that came down out of heaven, not as the fathers ate and died; the one who eats this bread will live forever.”​
note: "The details"​
-- Christ uses the symbolism of bread coming down out of heaven - in fact bread that ALREADY came down out of heaven. Which is using the symbol of manna - and using Christ in the symbol of bread - nobody thinks those in John 6 were seeing literal bread falling down out of heaven - obviously.​
-- Christ said the real literal way gaining eternal life - is to "believe IN Him" - rather than to claim you see literal bread falling out of heaven.​

But pointing to these "inconvenient details" is not "a joke - simply because it is a detail one may wish to ignore"

62 What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh provides no benefit; the WORDS that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.”​
Here Jesus points again to 'His WORDS' that are the source of life - they are SPIRIT and are LIFE -- and the "Spirit gives LIFE"

Jesus then goes pointedly to the 12 saying this
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to leave also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have WORDS of eternal life. 69 And we have already believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.”​

Peter (who also is not stated to be literally biting Christ as if literally eating Christ is the point of the teaching) admits to getting the point - that Jesus is talking about His WORDS as the source of life. and that simply eating literal flesh is not the real subject of His teaching.

NOTICING these "details" in the text is not "a joke just because those details are inconvenient to a given POV" - rather they are the actual details IN the text.
This is an absurdist's joke

Well you will need some actual argument for that "its a joke" idea of yours because at this point it does not look very convincing.
rather than a serious comment on the meaning of verse 64.
A good example of ignoring every detail in the text I pointed to in my post - including the idea of ignoring vs 63.

Which affirms my point that it is in fact "the details in the text" where your suggestion has some difficulty.
 
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BobRyan

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substance

the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

substance is a physical thing .... no getting around the definition of substance.

What is the Greek word for transubstantiation?

Transubstantiation (Latin: transubstantiatio; Greek: μετουσίωσις metousiosis) is, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, "the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of the Blood of Christ".

And yet they claim that a close evaluation of that actual substance shows it to still remain - as bread
 
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BobRyan

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substance

the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

substance is a physical thing .... no getting around the definition of substance.
Indeed - and in the case of bread and body and blood and wine that physical substance is in fact visible with observable physical properties.

But I can imagine how much easier a time it would have been for some creative word-gymnastics to make very counter intuitive claims about this in a pre-scientific more superstitious age in what is called by some as "the dark ages" today.
 
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rturner76

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Indeed - and in the case of bread and body and blood and wine that physical substance is in fact visible with observable physical properties.

But I can imagine how much easier a time it would have been for some creative word-gymnastics to make very counter intuitive claims about this in a pre-scientific more superstitious age in what is called by some as "the dark ages" today.
The Eucharist is called a "mystery" by the church where the flesh and blood are converted to bread and wine. This is the original CHurch's view on the matter. The newer self-appointed churches of the Protestants may see it differently but they would be leaning on their own understanding, not God's.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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What is the Greek word for transubstantiation?
Why do you think this is relevant?
substance

the real physical matter of which a person or thing consists and which has a tangible, solid presence.

substance is a physical thing .... no getting around the definition of substance.
Except none of that is the meaning of substance.
 
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eleos1954

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Indeed - and in the case of bread and body and blood and wine that physical substance is in fact visible with observable physical properties.

But I can imagine how much easier a time it would have been for some creative word-gymnastics to make very counter intuitive claims about this in a pre-scientific more superstitious age in what is called by some as "the dark ages" today.
is called by some as "the dark ages" today.

Why do you think this is relevant?

Except none of that is the meaning of substance.
Why do Catholic churches believe in transubstantiation?


Christ's proclamation at the Last Supper that the bread and wine were his body and blood must be taken literally, since God is truth. He thus believes that the change of the substances of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ offered in the Eucharist really occurs.

Means what it means.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Why do Catholic churches believe in transubstantiation?
There's more than one way for me to reply.
1) why do you believe in God?
2) because it is the truth.
Christ's proclamation at the Last Supper that the bread and wine were his body and blood must be taken literally, since God is truth. He thus believes that the change of the substances of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ offered in the Eucharist really occurs.
Yes, it really is Christ's body and it really is Christ's blood. That is why it is called the real presence.
 
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