Is the Devil Stronger than God?

[Zoii]

Since this is a Christian message board - for the sake of the context that most people take here - humor us by starting with the "Bible is the Word of God" as your starting premise.. then show us how some detail is "not logical" given that God authored the text,.. has infinite knowledge, is all powerful, made everyone and everything, and is an expert at conveying His precise meaning when He communicates.

Starting point -- God creates a "free will" universe where all beings are sinless but have free will.

Satan begins as a sinless being "Lucifer" and there are no demons. Then Satan falls.. and takes with him 1/3 of the angels.

I think as christians we have a diverse set of views. In that regard Im no different to anyone else here

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I can accept that version of hell - its all the fire-pits etc that I think are a nonsense.

Fire and brimstone (Rev 14) in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20) that takes place at the end of the 1000 year millennium of Revelation 20.

Real humans resurrected at the end of that 1000 years... real lake of fire... real fire and brimstone.

Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

 

[dreadnought]

you must believe what feel right and logical and ethical to you - if thats a physical entity called satan then thats fine.

Satan is referred to as "the tempter" in Matthew 4:3. How does that fit into your beliefs?

 

[BobRyan]

I think as christians we have a diverse set of views. In that regard Im no different to anyone else here

A great many people posting here - accept the Bible as the Word of God.

Humor us and show your arguments starting with that premise... otherwise you place a gap where there is no possibility of seeing the same point since you are wayy off in the land of "Bible is just a bunch of ignorent men writing the best ideas they could think of".

that's too big of a gap as the starting point to have a good conversation ...

 

[Zoii]

Fire and brimstone (Rev 14) in the Lake of Fire (Rev 20) that takes place at the end of the 1000 year millennium of Revelation 20.

Real humans resurrected at the end of that 1000 years... real lake of fire... real fire and brimstone.

Rev 20
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Yes I understood that an unknown author who calls himself John wrote his visions of the end of the world and the resurrection. Its not clear though when or exactly who wrote it - and yes he had visions of hell that i dont accept - but then Ive already said that

 

[Zoii]

Satan is referred to as "the tempter" in Matthew 4:3. How does that fit into your beliefs?

It fits Ok - I think you can be tempted towards something and it not necessarily being an actual entity thats doing the tempting - rather its a psychological battle in your own mind. Does that sit comfortably with you?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes I understood that an unknown author who calls himself John wrote his visions of the end of the world

Why would I make that wild assumption?

Why would anyone think that is the wild starting point for anyone posting here?

and the resurrection. Its not clear though when or exactly who wrote it - and yes he had visions of hell that i dont accept - but then Ive already said that

Of course you don't accept what he wrote -- he is just an ignorant writer in a pre-scientific culture coming up with the best ideas he can think of at the time - in your view.

And you and I both know that view is in perfect harmony with the way all atheists all up and down the street would also begin their view of it.

Not sure why you think Christians on this board view the Bible the same way as an atheist would.

 

[Zoii]

Why would I make that wild assumption?

Why would anyone think that is the wild starting point for anyone posting here?



Of course you don't accept what he wrote -- he is just an ignorant writer in a pre-scientific culture coming up with the best ideas he can think of at the time - in your view.

And you and I both know that view is in perfect harmony with the way all atheists all up and down the street would also begin their view of it.

Not sure why you think Christians on this board view the Bible the same way as an atheist would.

I can say truthfully that christians have an incredible diversity of views on every single element in the bible. I dont think anyone here is in the position to say they are a sole authority of what is truth and command that they speak for God. And its because noone can truly speak for God and argue that there interpretation is the correct one that christians have such a huge variant in the belief set. Im an example of it and you may find that hard to accept - but none the less there it is.

 

[mukk_in]

The devil is God's enemy (Matthew 13:25, Matthew 13:39). He is also the enemy of the people of God (Ephesians 6:11). The devil is the father of lies (John 8:44). He lies to God's people and tempts them to sin. He is the tempter of God's people (1 Thessalonians 3:5). He is the prince of the world in that he has deceived the whole world into participating in his rebellion against God (Revelation 12:9, Ephesians 2:2).

So we can safely say that if anyone is rebelling against God, the devil is involved. They are under his power and influence. And if anyones sins - including a believer - the devil is involved. He tempts people to sin and deceives people into sinning.

God saves people from the tyranny of the devil (Colossians 1:13). He is conquered by the blood of the lamb (Revelation 12:11). Surely the evil one hates this. He seeks to ensnare and destroy believers.

But is the devil stronger than God? Is he able to pluck them out of God's hand? Is he able to successfully tempt them to apostatize and to reject Jesus?

Jesus says no. In John 10:27-29 - 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

Paul says no. In Romans 8:38-39 he says - 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Those who are saved can never lose their salvation because Jesus is stronger than the devil. If you say that believers can lose their salvation then you deny this. You're effectively saying that the devil can prevail, even in a small way, against the Lord.

Not even close, and no further explanation needed .

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Correct. And it should be noted that this is not simply my private theory or interpretation. This is the interpretation of the Reformed Tradition.

I don't have any problem whether it is your private interpretation or that of the Reformed Tradition, as long as that interpretation can adequately explain all the seemingly conflicting passages in the Bible.

I would never put it like that.

In case you're not familiar with philosophy, we're operating from two different notions of freedom. You seem to be promoting libertarian freedom whereas my understanding would be compatibalist freedom. We don't need to get into that, but it's useful background info.

I wouldn't say I am promoting any kind of freedom though. I am just trying to understand the theory you are trying to explain. I don't have any problem with God having the ultimate sovereignty to decide whether He wants to give us that choice or not, if that happens to be the only interpretation that could explain all the Bible verses.

I would say that people make free decisions in the sense that they are not coerced or restrained. A sinner sins freely. No one twists their arm into sinning.

Think about it like this. A person in prison is not free. They desire to go home and be with their family but they can't. They are restrained. Likewise, a person with a gun to their head being forced to perform an action against their will is not free. They are acting, but their decision is coerced.

Both of these examples are the person being physically restrained, not mentally or spiritually restrained though. What if the person is hypnotized? Would you consider the person to be restrained?

An illustration:
not given faith => cannot believe => hamper their decision to choose the other way
given faith => have to believe => hamper their decision to choose the other way

When sinners sin, no one has a gun to their head. Likewise they are unrestrained (to an extent). God has given them to ability to do as they please. So they freely reject him.

But when God regenerates a person he gives them new desires. Suddenly they desire to obey God. They then become free to leave their life of sin and to obey God in a non-coerced and unrestrained way.

This is why Paul says in Romans 6 that once we were slaves to sin, but now we have become obedient to God from the heart and slaves to righteousness.

Do you agree that according to the Reformed interpretation, we are given the option to choose sin or not sin, but not the option to choose saved or not saved?

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

you must believe what feel right and logical and ethical to you - if thats a physical entity called satan then thats fine.

Jesus said He was present and saw Satan cast out of Heaven.Was Jesus lying or telling the truth.If there are parts of the Bible that are untrue, I suggest we toss the whole thing. It’s all or nothing. God wrote the Bible—-those who put pen to paper were merely secretaries

 

[GirdYourLoins]

Certainly not. Go read Job. God allows everything of Job's to be put under Satans power. Most of verse 1 is about Satan saying God protects Job and he is powerless to do anything against him. God then puts Job and everything he possesses under Satans power. If Satan was more powerful this whole book would not exist.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Certainly not. Go read Job. God allows everything of Job's to be put under Satans power. Most of verse 1 is about Satan saying God protects Job and he is powerless to do anything against him. God then puts Job and everything he possesses under Satans power. If Satan was more powerful this whole book would not exist.

God is God due to His power......the fact that He loves us is iceing on the cake.....we are VERY fortunate

 

[Sebastian Michael]

@Tree of Life
For those that are truly with the Lord? Of course they cannot be taken. They are elect and stand apart from the crowd. But there are many who call themselves Christians that are not saved. They have become lax and comfortable in a false sense of security. "Once saved, always saved" in itself is a true statement. Although, people's perception of salvation is often "askew", if you will. A man who is truly saved is indeed always saved. But certainly a man can walk away from God after seeing truth. It mentions this in Hebrews. "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." - Hebrews 10:38-39
"Not every one that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord', shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matthew 7:21
There are plenty that take the whole "living by faith alone" thing to a place where it does not stand; in falsehood. Our faith does save, but we can "draw back" from it.
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth." - Ezekiel 33:12
The question we believers must ask ourselves is, "What IS salvation? And what does it mean to be truly saved?" So many Christians seem to make their first mistake here. Just how many of us are lukewarm in our walk? I feel there is a very good reason that I feel it in my spirit not to attend a church. With everything I've seen and heard of churches these days, it seems fruitless to me to want to go to one of these places. Pastors up there cracking jokes and laughing, everybody having a grand ole' time. It's absurd. And listen, don't get me wrong. There is nothing wrong with being happy. But never forget, "A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth. It is better to go to the house of mourning, than to go to the house of feasting: for that is the end of all men; and the living will lay it to his heart. Sorrow is better than laughter: for by the sadness of the countenance the heart is made better. The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning; but the heart of fools is in the house of mirth." - Ecclesiastes 7:1-4 (by the way, "mirth" as defined means, "amusement, especially as expressed in laughter")
You'll find verse 4 of the following interesting I'm sure. It directly applies to those that honestly believe Jesus and the disciples had a "sense of humor".
"Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks." - Ephesians 5:1-4
Now "jesting", as defined should be self explanatory for anyone who has ever heard the word "jester". A jester was a kings "royal fool". The stand up comic of the 16th century if you will.
The definition: "Jest" - "a thing said or done for amusement; a joke."
"Jesting" - "to speak or act in a joking manner."
So for those that love Hollywood films where the actors make careers of being professional liars and jesters, really examine that fruitless world. For all those actors and actresses that say, "hey! I believe in God!" Well then look at your career and decide which one is better.
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." - Matthew 6:24
On this verse above ^^^ I encourage you to watch a video by the YouTuber "A Voice in the Desert". Here is the link >>>

He has excellent videos man. I encourage any and all of you to give him a look.
Anyway. I'm not arguing that a man cannot be plucked out of the hand of the Father once he is in the Father's hand and truly walking with Christ. But the thing is, you have to really be in the Father's hand and you really have to be walking with Christ. Sadly, many of us (myself included, don't worry. I'm in no way speaking from a seat of self righteousness.) are too distracted or stubborn to put all of ourselves in it. So while I agree that the Lord is far greater and mightier than Satan, I'm also saying that unless we truly know what it means to walk with Christ, then we are not going to be found safe and secure in the Father's hand. We will be found hurdling over obstacles on a long dirt road trying desperately not to fall.
"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:" - Isaiah 29:13
And Christ later quoted his Father, "Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 'This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.' But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." - Matthew 15:7-9
May you all be blessed in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But the thing is, you have to really be in the Father's hand and you really have to be walking with Christ. Sadly, many of us (myself included, don't worry. I'm in no way speaking from a seat of self righteousness.) are too distracted or stubborn to put all of ourselves in it.

This is the most important point, eternally life and death important, of all the posts in all the threads since the internet began, and of course for thousands of years before ....... yet it remains as Jesus Says "Few find the narrow road to LIFE..." while many remain on the wide road to destruction....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Do you agree that according to the Reformed interpretation, we are given the option to choose sin or not sin, but not the option to choose saved or not saved?

Which one does YHVH (God Sovereign Creator) Himself Say is possible to choose?
(several times throughout HIS WORD HE SAYS)

 

[Colter]

I can say truthfully that christians have an incredible diversity of views on every single element in the bible. I dont think anyone here is in the position to say they are a sole authority of what is truth and command that they speak for God. And its because noone can truly speak for God and argue that there interpretation is the correct one that christians have such a huge variant in the belief set. Im an example of it and you may find that hard to accept - but none the less there it is.

You have a healthy approach to the accumulated writings of holy men, of defending the truth against the fetishistic doctrine of the inspiration of the scripture. Blessings.

 

[Andrew Jeremiah]

Never

EVER

 

[BobRyan]

I can say truthfully that christians have an incredible diversity of views on every single element in the bible.

Certainly that is a true statement.

I am simply exploring the "logic" in the position you propose.

I am asking logically what the difference is between a "no miracles just ignorant men making their best guess at a good idea in a prescientific culture" and that same position as expressed by a kind atheist who views Christianity warmly but not as a supernatural truth based on the Word of God.

I dont think anyone here is in the position to say they are a sole authority of what is truth and command that they speak for God.

Certainly not me. ... But I can "read" the Bible details and ''see" what IT claims about itself.

Whether one chooses to believe the Bible and why -- is something we can explore in terms of the "logic" of that view for or against.

 

[BobRyan]

You have a healthy approach to the accumulated writings of holy men, of defending the truth against the fetishistic doctrine of the inspiration of the scripture. Blessings.

I think it is difficult to be a Christian who believes in the Word of God... the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection ... the Gospel as stated in the bible ... while dismissing the Bible as nothing more than the "best efforts of ignorant men living in a prescientific culture to make up the best stuff they could imagine at the time".

A lot of people on this board immediately recognize the obvious nature of that statement.

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??? That does not seem logical.