Is the bible's portrayal of hell, literal?

[Soulgazer]

Very good. Those Jews that believed in Heaven and Hell used these mythologies as scripture; The pharisee in Particular, used them as part of their Oral Tradition, part of which also came down into early Christianity. cf Exegesis on the Soul, a particularly enlightening text on the usage of the Torah as part of the Oral tradition, also concludes with a couple lines of Homer.

 

[he-man]

Very good. Those Jews that believed in Heaven and Hell used these mythologies as scripture; The pharisee in Particular, used them as part of their Oral Tradition, part of which also came down into early Christianity. cf Exegesis on the Soul, a particularly enlightening text on the usage of the Torah as part of the Oral tradition, also concludes with a couple lines of Homer.

Amazing....In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel.

The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.

A judge named Minos receives the dead from Hermes Psykhogogos (Leader of the Souls), and sentences the most wicked to eternal torment.

Tartaros was secured with a surrounding wall of bronze set with a pair of gates, guarded by the hundred-handed Hekatonkheir giants, warders of the Titanes.

Through the gates of Tartaros passed Nyx (goddess of the Night) who emerged to wrap the earth in darkness, and also her daughter Hemera (Day), who scattered the mists of night.
The Pit sired a child, Typhoeus, a monstrous serpentine storm-giant who attempted to seize heaven. Zeus vanquished the creature and cast it back down into the Pit.
Ixion

 

[Soulgazer]

Amazing....In ancient Greek mythology and religion the DOMOS HAIDOU or "realm of Haides" was the land of the dead, the final resting place for departed souls. It was a dark and dismal realm in which bodiless ghosts flitted across grey fields of asphodel.

The Homeric poets knew of no Islands of the Blessed or Elysian fields, or for that matter a Tartarean hell, instead all the spirits, including those of the great heroes, descended into Haides.

A judge named Minos receives the dead from Hermes Psykhogogos (Leader of the Souls), and sentences the most wicked to eternal torment.

Tartaros was secured with a surrounding wall of bronze set with a pair of gates, guarded by the hundred-handed Hekatonkheir giants, warders of the Titanes.

Through the gates of Tartaros passed Nyx (goddess of the Night) who emerged to wrap the earth in darkness, and also her daughter Hemera (Day), who scattered the mists of night.
The Pit sired a child, Typhoeus, a monstrous serpentine storm-giant who attempted to seize heaven. Zeus vanquished the creature and cast it back down into the Pit.
Ixion

True, but they probably read their belief into it, just as Christians read hell and heaven into the Old Testament.

Quoting just that closing passage, we can see how important the Greek Myths were to the Jews.

Therefore it is fitting to pray to God night and day, spreading out our hands towards him as do people sailing in the middle of the sea: they pray to God with all their heart without hypocrisy. For those who pray hypocritically deceive only themselves. Indeed, it is in order that he might know who is worthy of salvation that God examines the inward parts and searches the bottom of the heart. For no one is worthy of salvation who still loves the place of deception.
Therefore it is written in the poet (Homer, Odyssey 1.48-1.59), "Odysseus sat on the island weeping and grieving and turning his face from the words of Calypso and from her tricks, longing to see his village and smoke coming forth from it. And had he not received help from heaven, he would not have been able to return to his village."
Again Helen <...> saying (Odyssey 4.260-261), "My heart turned itself from me. It is to my house that I want to return."
For she sighed, saying (Odyssey 4.261-4.264), "It is Aphrodite who deceived me and brought me out of my village. My only daughter I left behind me, and my good, understanding, handsome husband."
For when the soul leaves her perfect husband because of the treachery of Aphrodite, who exists here in the act of begetting, then she will suffer harm. But if she sighs and repents, she will be restored to her house.
Certainly Israel would not have been visited in the first place, to be brought out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, if it had not sighed to God and wept for the oppression of its labors.
Again it is written in the Psalms (6:6-9), "I was greatly troubled in my groaning. I will bathe my bed and my cover each night with my tears. I have become old in the midst of all my enemies. Depart from me, all you who work at lawlessness, for behold the lord has heard the cry of my weeping and the lord has heard my prayer."
If we repent, truly God will heed us, he who is long suffering and abundantly merciful, to whom is the glory for ever and ever. Amen

 

[Timothew]

True, but they probably read their belief into it, just as Christians read hell and heaven into the Old Testament.

Quoting just that closing passage, we can see how important the Greek Myths were to the Jews.

I know firsthand how important the Greek Myths are to Traditional Christians. Suggest that there is no torture after death, and you get shouted down.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

I know firsthand how important the Greek Myths are to Traditional Christians. Suggest that there is no torture after death, and you get shouted down.

Suggest that there is and a person gets shouted down as well. I prefer the biblical truth method. Works every time and nothing can be said against it. It's not the person that's being argued with any longer but the Word of God. God bless.

 

[Timothew]

Suggest that there is and a person gets shouted down as well. I prefer the biblical truth method. Works every time and nothing can be said against it. It's not the person that's being argued with any longer but the Word of God. God bless.

Okay, here is what the Word of God says about it.
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.


John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

​

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

​

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
​

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

 

[tackattack]

everyone say hello to square one I hope everyone is having a blessed week.

 

[gasman64]

There have been a lot of mixture of beliefs going on. The idea of a 'lake of fire' came from the egyptian hell mythology that spoke of a 'pond of fire'. It was never meant to mean a giant cauldron that holds humanities souls for time immemorial. There wouldn't be enough room. In fact the word in the greek..'limne' means the same. Pond or small lake. And the connotation is one of safe harbour, refuge, close to shore. When the KJV was first written in 1611, hell meant 'to cover or conceal'. Now 400yrs later, in the same language, the meaning has been changed to a place of eternal torment or torture. Ridiculous. Forget the fact that none of the words translated as hell ever meant hell. Where did this silly doctrine come from? It came from a need to control the masses and extort money for the catholic church.
Then when you mix in the 'perpetual fires of gehenna', which was just a way of sanitation control for the rubbish tip of Jerusalem, being the valley of ge-hinnom or gehenna in the greek. They kept the fires burning to kill the rot and smell. Literal and known by anyone in Jerusalem. Yet this word is translated as hell.
Then when we look at torment or torture, we are talking about the greek word 'basanos', which is a touchstone. A touchstone or Lydia stone was used to test the purity of precious metals.
The lake of fire is not meant for non believers. It is meant for every man. Every man's works will be tested, by fire. The pond of fire is for purifying the carnal nature from all man. The first death being the death of the natural body. The second death being the purging of the old carnal nature of man.
There has been close to 1500 years of these silly contemptable teachings that have held believers in bondage for no reason at all except for control and fear and extortion. It's not surprising that so many believe them.
I'm sure the hell police will jump all over this. I choose not to live in fear. neither should you. Rather, let us fear (hold in awe or reverence) the Lord.
Hope that helps answers your original question.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

There have been a lot of mixture of beliefs going on. The idea of a 'lake of fire' came from the egyptian hell mythology that spoke of a 'pond of fire'. It was never meant to mean a giant cauldron that holds humanities souls for time immemorial. There wouldn't be enough room. In fact the word in the greek..'limne' means the same. Pond or small lake. And the connotation is one of safe harbour, refuge, close to shore. When the KJV was first written in 1611, hell meant 'to cover or conceal'. Now 400yrs later, in the same language, the meaning has been changed to a place of eternal torment or torture. Ridiculous. Forget the fact that none of the words translated as hell ever meant hell. Where did this silly doctrine come from? It came from a need to control the masses and extort money for the catholic church.
Then when you mix in the 'perpetual fires of gehenna', which was just a way of sanitation control for the rubbish tip of Jerusalem, being the valley of ge-hinnom or gehenna in the greek. They kept the fires burning to kill the rot and smell. Literal and known by anyone in Jerusalem. Yet this word is translated as hell.
Then when we look at torment or torture, we are talking about the greek word 'basanos', which is a touchstone. A touchstone or Lydia stone was used to test the purity of precious metals.
The lake of fire is not meant for non believers. It is meant for every man. Every man's works will be tested, by fire. The pond of fire is for purifying the carnal nature from all man. The first death being the death of the natural body. The second death being the purging of the old carnal nature of man.
There has been close to 1500 years of these silly contemptable teachings that have held believers in bondage for no reason at all except for control and fear and extortion. It's not surprising that so many believe them.
I'm sure the hell police will jump all over this. I choose not to live in fear. neither should you. Rather, let us fear (hold in awe or reverence) the Lord.
Hope that helps answers your original question.

Well, let me be the first of the 'Hell Police' I have no intention of being in the garbage dump-smells too much! And neither does Christ have any intention of putting the believer there-
"And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:6-8, ESV).
So where does this say "all men"? It doesn't. But it IS very literal that some will end up there. Are we to take Christ at His word or are we to take false teaching at its word? In reality that's what we are left with. The inerrant Word of God or the word of man, fallible and incomplete.

 

[Soulgazer]

Well, let me be the first of the 'Hell Police' I have no intention of being in the garbage dump-smells too much! And neither does Christ have any intention of putting the believer there-
"And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:6-8, ESV).
So where does this say "all men"? It doesn't. But it IS very literal that some will end up there. Are we to take Christ at His word or are we to take false teaching at its word? In reality that's what we are left with. The inerrant Word of God or the word of man, fallible and incomplete.

Where in the Bible does the Bible say that the Bible is the inerrant word of God?

 

[ImaginaryDay]

Where in the Bible does the Bible say that the Bible is the inerrant word of God?

Come on. It's generally accepted. But I also know the forum where we are discussing this...

 

[Timothew]

The Unorthodox Theology Forum doesn't negate the truth. In fact, on some issues (cough-annihilationism-cough) it's the only place on CF where the truth is allowed to be spoken.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

And besides, in this case, these are the words of THE WORD of God Himself. The argument, then is with Him.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

The Unorthodox Theology Forum doesn't negate the truth. In fact, on some issues (cough-annihilationism-cough) it's the only place on CF where the truth is allowed to be spoken.

I'm coming to find this to be true. Bear with me here, I'm learning a lot.

 

[gasman64]

Well, let me be the first of the 'Hell Police' I have no intention of being in the garbage dump-smells too much! And neither does Christ have any intention of putting the believer there-
"And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.” (Rev. 21:6-8, ESV).
So where does this say "all men"? It doesn't. But it IS very literal that some will end up there. Are we to take Christ at His word or are we to take false teaching at its word? In reality that's what we are left with. The inerrant Word of God or the word of man, fallible and incomplete.

I never said that God was going to put anyone in the garbage dump. That is another perfect example of people not reading what was written, but reading what they want out of what actually was. I'm saying that Gehenna is NOT hell. By the way, fire and sulfur in the context of scripture are a good thing. Not a bad thing. Yes it is related to judgement, and judgement for everyman's own works, but the end is not a place of eternal torture and punishment and the original text doesn't support it.

I noticed in this thread that very few people made an attempt to answer the original question. But it got hi-jacked by others who flooded the thread with cut & pastes that went all over the place as people tried to score points against each other. Why not try policing that instead and leave the answers to people who actually know how to answer it.

The 'lake of fire' is for everyone. Including christians. In fact the entire bible was written for God's people and when it talks about the wicked, guess what? That's you and me. Not the people of the world.

 

[Soulgazer]

The honest answer to the OP is "Yes" and "no". The concept of Heaven and hell or any type of afterlife was not introduced to Judaism until sometime in the Hasmonean dynasty in the second century bc, so quoting OT scripture for Hell is just introducing anachronisms, and would be no more valid than a future religion thrusting their set of beliefs on us.

The Pharisee favored Hellenization, and the Sadducee resisted it; The Sadducee did not believe in an after life, and the Pharisee adopted the Greek stance, with some spin of their own.

The Messianics(who did not agree with the Pharisee but still adopted a belief in an afterlife) relied heavily on the various books attributed to Enoch that also cropped up in this time period.

Those writers such as the authors of Jude, or John, who relied on Enoch, would have seen Hell as a Parable, while those writers who were converted Pharisee would have seen Hell as Literal.

Those are the facts, but facts usually don't make for good conversation. So if you are worried about it, pick a belief, and then one of the thirty thousand denominations that matches it.

 

[gasman64]

The honest answer to the OP is "Yes" and "no". The concept of Heaven and hell or any type of afterlife was not introduced to Judaism until sometime in the Hasmonean dynasty in the second century bc, so quoting OT scripture for Hell is just introducing anachronisms, and would be no more valid than a future religion thrusting their set of beliefs on us.

The Pharisee favored Hellenization, and the Sadducee resisted it; The Sadducee did not believe in an after life, and the Pharisee adopted the Greek stance, with some spin of their own.

The Messianics(who did not agree with the Pharisee but still adopted a belief in an afterlife) relied heavily on the various books attributed to Enoch that also cropped up in this time period.

Those writers such as the authors of Jude, or John, who relied on Enoch, would have seen Hell as a Parable, while those writers who were converted Pharisee would have seen Hell as Literal.

Those are the facts, but facts usually don't make for good conversation. So if you are worried about it, pick a belief, and then one of the thirty thousand denominations that matches it.

Thank you for that sound piece of balance there Soul. You are correct. Something more to add is that the mixing of beliefs due to the time the hebrews spent both in Egypt and in Babylon can be clearly seen if you know how to look for it. It is from those 2 times they were in bondage that the concept of a place of punishment in the afterlife came from as the bondage cultures became mixed in their own. Hell itself is an english word from the 17th century that in it's day meant to cover or to conceal. Not a place of eternal punishment and torture. How they used it to translate 4 separate words in 2 languages thousands of years older can only be called ludicrous.
And both the hebrews and greeks had no word or concept for 'eternity'. They never even conceived it as an idea.
What we have today is a mixture of doctrines and ideas morphed into a theology that the original texts of scripture just doesn't support.
Hell and death get cast into the lake of fire as well. So they cannot be eternal either.

 

[Soulgazer]

Ecclesiastes 6

1 I have seen another evil under the sun, and it weighs heavily on mankind: 2 God gives some people wealth, possessions and honor, so that they lack nothing their hearts desire, but God does not grant them the ability to enjoy them, and strangers enjoy them instead. This is meaningless, a grievous evil.
3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man&#8212; 6 even if he lives a thousand years twice over but fails to enjoy his prosperity. Do not all go to the same place?

Ecclesiastes 9 (New International Version)


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Ecclesiastes 9

New International Version (NIV)

Ecclesiastes 9

A Common Destiny for All

1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God&#8217;s hands, but no one knows whether love or hate awaits them. 2 All share a common destiny&#8212;the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad,[a] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not. As it is with the good,
so with the sinful;
as it is with those who take oaths,
so with those who are afraid to take them.
3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of people, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope[b]&#8212;even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!
5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.
7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for God has already approved what you do. 8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil. 9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun&#8212;all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun. 10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

 

[gasman64]

I'm new to the forums soul, so I have no idea what sort of post you just did, nor can I see what point you are trying to make. Please elaborate more clearly.

 

[Soulgazer]

I'm new to the forums soul, so I have no idea what sort of post you just did, nor can I see what point you are trying to make. Please elaborate more clearly.

Just backing up the statement with biblical evidence. It's just a cut and paste from Ecclesiastes, showing that all ended up in the same place.