Is the baptism vs not required, a silly debate?

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Obviously you keep ignoring what others are saying and only wish to repeat the dogma you have been indoctrinated with. Its as if you were taking a test before a board of some denomination that demands that men believe what they say is so.

You keep ignoring what the Word has to say says in full council and only want to repeat the out of context presumptions you have been told.

Can you take the time needed to see what other parts of Scripture tell us in showing why water baptism was performed in the early days of the church age? No one in the early days knew church age doctrines when they were water baptizing.

Have you understood that much at least? Please, we are not here to give you a board exam. "Bored" exam is what it will become if you continue to refuse to address what you have been shown. Shown to hopefully open your eyes to reveal what you what have been denied.

We do not need the old rhetoric used by those who insist upon water baptism today. Most here have already heard it and know it well.


Dang! Please! Read?

"For John baptized with water, but in a few
days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."​

Does that communicate anything to you?

Does it help explain that a new era was about to begin? That the apostles in the very beginning of the church age were simply continuing with the old, at a time when the old was to decrease, so that the new could increase? It was a time for a huge learning curve to be implemented!

They also had to learn that no longer was anyone a Jew or Gentile when in Christ. In those days of water baptizing the Jewish believers were still treating the gentile believers like second class citizens.

What was taking place in the early days was a huge change for everyone. Add to that the NT Scriptures were not yet given in its fullness. In other words? It should come as no surprise that mistakes of presumption were going to be made/ The Lord wanted those mistakes on record because we all make mistakes as we continue to grow in grace and truth.No one should condemn himself when he discovers how stupid and loyal he had been to a wrong understanding. I have been there a number of times. I accepted correction. Some others I noticed balked and reverted back to what they wanted to believe as to remain in the approval of the herd they were bound to.​

Yes, it communicates this.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Acts 1
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


Acts 10
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 19
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Acts 22
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


I will accept correction. I will not accept error.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."

1 Cor 10:2​

They were all made to be in identification with Moses! That was another meaning they used for the Greek word 'baptismo" back then. Meaning to be be put into identification with someone, or some thing.

​

"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea."​

The baptize in the Name of Jesus is to teach about Jesus in such a way that the listeners become immersed in their thinking and enter into identification with Jesus while they are walking in the Spirit.

The other problem is one of not understand how the word "name" was used in its various meanings by the ancients. "Name" could mean to speak in reference to a person himself. To baptize into the name of Moses is what the Jews in the Exodus experienced by the hand of the Lord. For they were forced into a situation that forced them to identify with Moses as he led without fear where they would have been terrified normally.

1 Cor
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Baptized into Christ
Water
Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Acts 10
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

___________________________________________________
Spirit
Acts 10
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 2
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

As it is thought by all.

Why do we all not agree if we are all being led by the same Spirit? There would be no 1000+ denominations if everyone were being guided by the Holy Spirit they all lay claim to. They all think that its the Spirit guiding them. A Hindu I know achieved great wealth being led by a spirit. Its a very deceptive path to be on. God's safety hatch? Accurate comprehension of the Word of God. To protect us, God has raised up some teachers who will offer accurate interpretation. The many diverse conflicting presentations can not be the fruit of the Spirit. Though all claim to be led of the Spirit who enter into false doctrine.

This not joining the boy scouts where we are to earn merit badges of finding the approval by men.

It's funny brother, you see the word spirit but ignore the word study and the rest of what I said.
"I believe on what the word of God says as it has been revealed to me by study and the guidance of the Holy spirit."
"Everything I have said is in context, I don't know where you are getting this idea either brother. Nothing I have said has not been in full agreement with the rest of scripture. "

Everything I have said has been from scripture alone. No private interpretation. You believe yourself to be a true teacher or to hold true doctrine brother. But what you preach disagrees with God's word. That is how we know the fruit you bear is not of God.

I am hated by most the men I meet, for God's word(after I have preached to them that is). Believe me brother I do not seek, nor do I find, approval by men. I seek only the Approval of God, Studying to show myself approved.

 

[Jonathan OShea]

I've seen some "Baptism required for salvation vs not required" debates.

A person who believed is going to get baptized, ....

How does one profess to believe In Christ yet refuse to do an important sacrament????? It makes absolutely no sense. The debate should be titled, "If one doesn't desire or want to be baptized, is he really in the faith?"

The whole argument doesn't make sense, because its like this. "I believe brushing my teeth is good for me, but I refuse to brush my teeth". The action doesn't line up with the belief. huh?

Baptism is an outward ordinance showing an inward work. It does not purify sin but after a person is saved then is a command of God so will be a sin if a person willingly disobeys the commandment making that person no longer saved.

 

[Thess]

LOL I don't know about any hidden rules, I was asking a direct question of someone else. As I said I agree with what you posted just didn't understand was it directed at me.

I realize now that I have broken one of your ideologies that does not settle well with you. I will not do it again. I am very sorry to have bothered you.

 

[GenemZ]

Yes, it communicates this.
Matt 3:11
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John 3
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Acts 1
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Acts 2
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.


Acts 10
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 11
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

Acts 19
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


Acts 22
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.


I will accept correction. I will not accept error.

How many time do we have to go over this? If you are ever going to get it? Its not going to be at this time. So?

You will stand before Him alone. So will I.

Take care.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

How many time do we have to go over this? If you are ever going to get it? Its not going to be at this time. So?

You will stand before Him alone. So will I.

Take care.

Brother, you are the one who keeps replying to me. Not the other way around. I tried to end this conversation before, when I saw you had no intention of trying to understand the truth.

I love you brother,
May God Guide you to the truth of his word.

 

[GenemZ]

Brother, you are the one who keeps replying to me. Not the other way around.

Did you just reply to me?


Take care.

 

[GenemZ]

Here is the problem as I see it.

A person can be 100% correct in his mind because he takes something literally and slices away its context. Because he refuses to listen to reason? He is 100% wrong. Yet? If he shows what he believes to the uninitiated? Someone who knows next to nothing? They both will be in agreement. That is why errors have momentum.

There is a humor to it too. Like the story about the man who the police stopped at night for driving with his lights off. The officer told him to turn his lights on, but the man insisted it was a beautiful night and refused to.

We'll the man was issued a ticket and had to go appear before the judge because he argued and persisted with the policeman. The man kept insisting that he did not break the law. The policeman tried reasoning with the man but got no where. The man insisted that he had not broken the law by driving at night with his lights off and can prove it in the court. So, a court appearance is what he got.

The man refused free public counsel and told the magistrate that he would represent himself in court.

The day came..

The judge read him the citation before those in the room. The man then took out his cell phone and told the judge that he has proof that he was even obeying the law! What? Yes... He turned on his phone and showed the judge a photo he had taken that was just a few hundred feet away from where he was stopped and ticketed.

This is the photo that he showed the judge..

He then showed on his phone the weather report for the evening he was ticketed. The weather report showed it was a clear and warm night.

He then said to the judge.. "Your honor! My lights were not on because it was not raining! I was obeying the law!" - The judge was stunned.

You see? .. Literally and out of context someone can be made to appear to be 100% correct. But, when he refuses to listen when the context is supplied?
That 100% person person may end up being charged with contempt of court.

Selah..

 

[GenemZ]

Context...

Yes... Peter ordered water baptisms and assumed it was the right thing to.

But? Peter was driving at night with his lights off.

But, what's worse? Some people who read of this account that God wanted recorded for our knowing, have themselves run out of context because they choose to ignored the passages that would show Peter was young and naive in the new way of life in Christ. And, like us all. Peter made mistakes because of his ignorance.

Its those who persist in stubbornness... Who refuse to see what else the Bible has to say? If they continue to fold their arms and defy what is shown? May just end up with a contempt of court citation from the Supreme Court of Heaven. Grace. God sends his messengers to help us avoid remaining ignorant.

John baptized with water. Its all that Peter knew how to do. For, Peter had water baptized many people while Christ was on earth. It became second nature to him. Of course, Peter had been water baptizing Jews. Not gentiles! It was forbidden before.

So? When Peter witnessed first hand that Gentiles were receiving the baptism of the Spirit like the Jews had at Pentecost? Peter put down his Jewish displeasure with the primitive Gentiles, and declared that these new believers should not be denied water baptism! That is why Peter said...

The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were
astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured
out even on Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in
tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, “Surely no one can stand in the way of
their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy
Spirit just as we have.” Acts 10:45-47​

At that point, God was slowly weaning the Jews out of their bias against the Gentiles. A bias, by the way. That the Lord Himself originally instilled in them at a time when the gentiles were amoral and crude. But, now that he Holy Spirit was going to control the Gentiles (potentially) God was removing the command for Jews to separate from the gentiles!

Like all of us have been when put in a new situation while needing training. We can only do what we know. Peter still did not know that water baptism was no longer to be the way for those who believed. It was all new to him. So? He did what he knew was the correct thing to do according to when he was still living in the age of Israel under the Law.

It only makes sense that Peter did what he did. So? Are we now to deify Peter's error of naivete today? Some do. And, it causes a disconnect with what Christianity is by reverting back to being a religion of rules and rituals.

Christianity is about a spiritual freedom that makes us able to not only know truth. But, by the power of grace to become living that truth in our thinking. Christianity when its properly understood is hardly what rules and rituals produce. Water baptism reverts Christianity back to being only a religion.

Hopefully, its to be understood today why water baptism took place in the early days of the church age. And - seen for what it was. Mistakes were made at times.

Those today who follow with a demand for water baptism reveal that they have failed to see the sacredness and real power of the Baptism of The Holy Spirit. Its to be our life! For filling of the Holy Spirit is life! But, only if its properly understood. Many still do not understand and seek various ways of religion that they can follow in the simplistic reasoning of their flesh. When they do that, they fail to find themselves being enabled by the Spirit to see what is right before them. Right there but can not detect what there is to be made known. Add to that, demon influence wants to counterfeit that experience in a perverted way. Its where all dogmatic false doctrinal teachings come from. For the Word becomes perverted when it happens. False teachings thrive with such. They refuse to acknowledge sound doctrinal reasoning.

That is why I persisted in explaining and clarifying about water baptism not being for the church age. Understanding the filling of the Holy Spirit is the one thing that will be able to tie Satan's ankles and wrists when God has enough believers knowing what it means to be walking in the Spirit at all times.

In Sodom the Lord only needed ten righteous souls to turn around the mess. Only ten. Only a few will find it. Spirit Baptism offers us Spirit filling if we would only learn God system for life in Christ, not religion as many seek as an easy way out in the spiritual pressures we face in this war we are inside of.

Unless enough believers persevere and find it that God wants to reveal? Destruction like Sodom takes place in that nation when God is through trying to raise up a few "ten righteous" who will walk in the Spirit, not religion.

Religion manipulates by means of "dogma shaming." As found in.. 'You mean you deny this sacrament?'

For John baptized with water, but in a few
days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:5


I (John the Baptist) baptize you with water,
but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8​

Some are slow to catch on. Like Peter was. That is why God wants Peter's account on record so we who are slow will not waste time being ashamed and hating ourselves for being stupid when correction comes our way.

God's ways are not our ways. We all will be at times made to feel stupid when when we find out what we were sure of is not as we wish to see it.

When correction is accepted? Then that is humility. God gives grace only to the humble. The proud hates to be made to feel stupid and will keep fighting the truth. And, in turn? It says God opposes (makes war) against that proud believer.

Peter learned..

“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time." 1 Pet 5:5b-6​

6 But He gives greater grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.” Jas 4:6

.​

.