Is the advice abusive or is it holy?

[abacabb3]

Someone I know is going through marital issues. Their spiritual father and parish priest both concluded one spouse needs psychiatric help but they feel it would be inflammatory to bring this up to the spouse so the individual does not appear like he/she will be recommended to get help for some time. The problem is lasting for years at this point. Obviously the other spouse and their child suffer.

On that note, the other spouse was given the advice from the priest along the lines of "if you are really bold/faithful, be like Christ and bear your spouse's burden and pray to God that He would give you the burden of your spouse's mental illness in order to free your spouse." This is not an exaggeration.

Now, what is the worthiness of this advice? In the lives of the saints there are examples of a desert father or whatever willing to bear the penalty of someone else's sin. However, is this unrealistic for family people living in the world? Is it responsible to even be giving this response unless the priest would pray that his own family and spouse suffer all the problems in order to liberate the family whom he is counseling?

I ask this question because it seems that in Orthodoxy, the life advice given is so idealistic and impracticable that it is no wonder people aren't going to confession. The priests are being filled up with what may be good doctrine at seminary but not being taught any sort of practical discernment. So obviously this is my feeling on it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I dunno, but it’s in line with our tradition, so it is worthy advice at face value. I mean, St Paul is willing to be damned to save others. that said, there is probably more to it that we don’t know.

 

[abacabb3]

I dunno, but it’s in line with our tradition, so it is worthy advice at face value. I mean, St Paul is willing to be damned to save others. that said, there is probably more to it that we don’t know.

Father bless! There's something about discernment and not being insensitive. With all due respect, and read my words with the kindest possible tone, but I don't see you signing up to pray right now that you suffer the mental illness of the spouse in the OP and that your family fall apart so that their family remain intact. Maybe if you do, I'd take what you say here a little more seriously. I will apologize if you write back in earnest and say, "Yes, I made that prayer for the OP family."

Orthodoxy is not just a theory. If it's not real world, then I don't see how it's beneficial.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Father bless! There's something about discernment and not being insensitive. With all due respect, and read my words with the kindest possible tone, but I don't see you signing up to pray right now that you suffer the mental illness of the spouse in the OP and that your family fall apart so that their family remain intact. Maybe if you do, I'd take what you say here a little more seriously. I will apologize if you write back in earnest and say, "Yes, I made that prayer for the OP family."

I know, hence me saying there is probably more that we don’t know.

and I did not say that the advice was proper since I know neither the priest or the couple, only that it does fall in line with our tradition.

Orthodoxy is not just a theory. If it's not real world, then I don't see how it's beneficial.

I am well aware of this, being a priest of the Church.

 

[abacabb3]

I'll take that to mean you'd never have the audacity to pray for such a thing in any event. The Scriptures say, "Don't put the Lord God to the test."

 

[ArmyMatt]

I'll take that to mean you'd never have the audacity to pray for such a thing in any event. The Scriptures say, "Don't put the Lord God to the test."

personally, no. of course I have never had a pastoral encounter where something like that might be warranted.

plus, if you read what some of our saints say, that’s not necessarily putting God to the test.

 

[rusmeister]

My own thought is that no one can be “made” to do anything; that pursuing the Christian ideal is voluntary. Nevertheless, we do call people to be faithful in marriage in the Church, and don’t generally put qualifiers on that. Unrepentant adultery is the only case where it has generally been acknowledged that a marriage may be broken and what God hath joined together put asunder by man. But even there, the Christian ideal would discourage divorce and call for the faithful spouse to live in celibacy, as opposed to the world which encourages divorce for reasons that draw our sympathy, but have nothing to do with what the Church teaches marriage to be.

All that said, it certainly seems counter to our Tradition for a priest to tell someone to ask for “the burden of a mental illness” (as such). It is one thing to bear a cross in humility, it is another thing to ask for an illness that would push you to refuse to carry any cross. So that seems definitely off the mark.

I can’t imagine why seeking help guided by the Church’s understanding of marriage should be discouraged. I do think it is now rather difficult, but not impossible, to find such help. Certainly there are some conditions with causes that can be treated physically, as long as it is recognized that many causes are also spiritual, and that wrong understandings or expectations of marriage can fuel the kind of unhappiness that causes strife in a marriage.

 

[abacabb3]

personally, no. of course I have never had a pastoral encounter where something like that might be warranted.

plus, if you read what some of our saints say, that’s not necessarily putting God to the test.

Yes, that's what I think in the OP. It's applicable in very extreme situations and it is something a bona fide saint may do--its not good advice for normal people unless that normal person really looks like a saint--and even then, you'd have to know that person very well to think they can handle it and even then someone who thinks they can handle most likely would suffer from prelest--which then begs the question, why would someone play with fire and give such advice? No need to speculate.

 

[abacabb3]

My own thought is that no one can be “made” to do anything; that pursuing the Christian ideal is voluntary. Nevertheless, we do call people to be faithful in marriage in the Church, and don’t generally put qualifiers on that. Unrepentant adultery is the only case where it has generally been acknowledged that a marriage may be broken and what God hath joined together put asunder by man. But even there, the Christian ideal would discourage divorce and call for the faithful spouse to live in celibacy, as opposed to the world which encourages divorce for reasons that draw our sympathy, but have nothing to do with what the Church teaches marriage to be.

All that said, it certainly seems counter to our Tradition for a priest to tell someone to ask for “the burden of a mental illness” (as such). It is one thing to bear a cross in humility, it is another thing to ask for an illness that would push you to refuse to carry any cross. So that seems definitely off the mark.

I can’t imagine why seeking help guided by the Church’s understanding of marriage should be discouraged. I do think it is now rather difficult, but not impossible, to find such help. Certainly there are some conditions with causes that can be treated physically, as long as it is recognized that many causes are also spiritual, and that wrong understandings or expectations of marriage can fuel the kind of unhappiness that causes strife in a marriage.

Honestly, I think the Church has become very unsupportive of strong marriages and it is leading to divorces.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Yes, that's what I think in the OP. It's applicable in very extreme situations and it is something a bona fide saint may do--its not good advice for normal people unless that normal person really looks like a saint--and even then, you'd have to know that person very well to think they can handle it and even then someone who thinks they can handle most likely would suffer from prelest--which then begs the question, why would someone play with fire and give such advice? No need to speculate.

but my question is, not knowing the details, how do we know this is or is not bad advice? I don’t think anyone can accurately assess anything based on the info given.

 

[truefiction1]

Someone I know is going through marital issues. Their spiritual father and parish priest both concluded one spouse needs psychiatric help but they feel it would be inflammatory to bring this up to the spouse so the individual does not appear like he/she will be recommended to get help for some time. The problem is lasting for years at this point. Obviously the other spouse and their child suffer.

On that note, the other spouse was given the advice from the priest along the lines of "if you are really bold/faithful, be like Christ and bear your spouse's burden and pray to God that He would give you the burden of your spouse's mental illness in order to free your spouse." This is not an exaggeration.

Now, what is the worthiness of this advice? In the lives of the saints there are examples of a desert father or whatever willing to bear the penalty of someone else's sin. However, is this unrealistic for family people living in the world? Is it responsible to even be giving this response unless the priest would pray that his own family and spouse suffer all the problems in order to liberate the family whom he is counseling?

I ask this question because it seems that in Orthodoxy, the life advice given is so idealistic and impracticable that it is no wonder people aren't going to confession. The priests are being filled up with what may be good doctrine at seminary but not being taught any sort of practical discernment. So obviously this is my feeling on it.

It's so hard to say what the correct counsel might be. In most instances there are things that a priests, inlaws, friends, etcera aren't aware of. One error I've become aware of is that, while one spouse may have particular mental or emotional health disorders, the other spouse has behaved in ways, maybe in response to these conditions, or else due to certain conditions that they themselves are afflicted with (or both), which have exasperated the mental health conditions of the other spouse.

Thus, we may see the insanely irrational and inexcusable behavior of the suspected mentally ill person, while not seeing any such things that were done by the other spouse, or the other spouses family and friends, that may be somewhat to blame for that person's sickness.

There is a tendency to lay blame on one partner of the marriage and to become impatient and angry towards them; directing hostility towards them. Some priests have done this very thing, having been influenced by the points of view and opinions of those who are of the party they are closest to. In other words they failed to be impartial. Perhaps they were lacking in holiness, and so they project their own shortcomings onto one of the spouses and then openly criticize and judge them. In such cases the priest is of no help, many times doing more harm to the marriage than good.

So, it's just very hard to know what to say sometimes. It's tempting to try to help couples try to fix things by offering them a "one method fits all" type of solution, but It's doubtful that there is one that would work in most cases.

There is only one way for a priest to be able to be of real help to such marriages: It is by "prayer and fasting" alone. For powerful and keen gifts of spiritual discernment, including the ability to perceive and to know things that are not being said, are a must. These are given only to ascetics. Otherwise you run the risk of causing irreversable spiritual harm, for which their are going to be some sort of painful personal consequences.

 

[seashale76]

The kindest thing to do is for everyone involved to flat out tell the person in question that they need to seek psychiatric help. An intervention is obviously needed. The priests and the spouse need to quit tip-toeing around the issue. At the very least the spouse needs to go forward to do what is right for their child. It needs to be done before they become like those who come my way on an enforced 72 Hour Hold that sometimes can turn into a Mental Inquest Warrant. (I see way more of this type of thing routinely than you all would comfortable knowing about- and I DON'T work in psych. We've become a nation of people with major psych issues that have gone unaddressed for too long.)

(As a non-related aside- I fear I may have lingering anxiety and stress from the most violent situation I've ever witnessed in real life recently in that very scenario. The patient in question snapped in the blink of an eye. People were injured. An entire room was destroyed. I had to force myself to go back to work the next day.)

 

[rusmeister]

but my question is, not knowing the details, how do we know this is or is not bad advice? I don’t think anyone can accurately assess anything based on the info given.

My own post was general in nature, and not aimed at a specific situation. I think it bad in all cases to ask to become mentally or spiritually ill, just as I think it bad to invite demons to possess one. Some things are not on “a case by case basis”, but are universal. So yes, I think that one specific piece of advice is bad advice regardless of the individual situation. Many other good pieces of advice may have been given; I say nothing about that.

 

[rusmeister]

The kindest thing to do is for everyone involved to flat out tell the person in question that they need to seek psychiatric help. An intervention is obviously needed. The priests and the spouse need to quit tip-toeing around the issue. At the very least the spouse needs to go forward to do what is right for their child. It needs to be done before they become like those who come my way on an enforced 72 Hour Hold that sometimes can turn into a Mental Inquest Warrant. (I see way more of this type of thing routinely than you all would comfortable knowing about- and I DON'T work in psych. We've become a nation of people with major psych issues that have gone unaddressed for too long.)

(As a non-related aside- I fear I may have lingering anxiety and stress from the most violent situation I've ever witnessed in real life recently in that very scenario. The patient in question snapped in the blink of an eye. People were injured. An entire room was destroyed. I had to force myself to go back to work the next day.)

I actually support this answer under the condition that the help is guided by what the Church teaches. I am afraid that too much of what passes for psych- help is NOT guided by that, but by secular ideas of what human nature is that contradict, deny or ignore our teachings.

 

[ArmyMatt]

My own post was general in nature, and not aimed at a specific situation. I think it bad in all cases to ask to become mentally or spiritually ill, just as I think it bad to invite demons to possess one. Some things are not on “a case by case basis”, but are universal. So yes, I think that one specific piece of advice is bad advice regardless of the individual situation. Many other good pieces of advice may have been given; I say nothing about that.

again, you do find this in the saints though. so it’s not bad advice in all cases. now, whether or not it’s bad advice in this case is another thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I actually support this answer under the condition that the help is guided by what the Church teaches. I am afraid that too much of what passes for psych- help is NOT guided by that, but by secular ideas of what human nature is that contradict, deny or ignore our teachings.

oh I’ll agree with this.

 

[The Liturgist]

oh I’ll agree with this.

My main concern is that it would be impossible for someone to even try to live as a Stylite or a Fool-for-Christ in much of the world.

That said, I have heard of some very good Orthodox mental healthcare providers, and I recall reading of a clinic in Colorado (I think) that had a good reputation as well as a number in Greece. Have you read Orthodox Psychotherapy by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos?

 

[ArmyMatt]

My main concern is that it would be impossible for someone to even try to live as a Stylite or a Fool-for-Christ in much of the world.

they can with God’s grace.

Have you read Orthodox Psychotherapy by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos?

not yet, but I want to.

 

[Dorothea]

Someone I know is going through marital issues. Their spiritual father and parish priest both concluded one spouse needs psychiatric help but they feel it would be inflammatory to bring this up to the spouse so the individual does not appear like he/she will be recommended to get help for some time. The problem is lasting for years at this point. Obviously the other spouse and their child suffer.

On that note, the other spouse was given the advice from the priest along the lines of "if you are really bold/faithful, be like Christ and bear your spouse's burden and pray to God that He would give you the burden of your spouse's mental illness in order to free your spouse." This is not an exaggeration.

Now, what is the worthiness of this advice? In the lives of the saints there are examples of a desert father or whatever willing to bear the penalty of someone else's sin. However, is this unrealistic for family people living in the world? Is it responsible to even be giving this response unless the priest would pray that his own family and spouse suffer all the problems in order to liberate the family whom he is counseling?

I ask this question because it seems that in Orthodoxy, the life advice given is so idealistic and impracticable that it is no wonder people aren't going to confession. The priests are being filled up with what may be good doctrine at seminary but not being taught any sort of practical discernment. So obviously this is my feeling on it.

Well, I'm going to be honest, as I always am. I felt compelled to answer this from my own experiences in marriage. I recall telling my priest about the issues with my ex-husband and was told why can't we just live as brother and sister. I responded, "You want me to stay in an abusive relationship, Father?" He said no. If I'd stayed in that situation, this would've given my ex a free ticket to more adulterous activity, akin to men a few hundred years ago being married and also having a mistress. I'd been stuck in a relationship with no regard for what it means to be married and miserable. Sure, there are examples of saints living in those types of marriages. I'm not one of them. The sickness ate through the whole family and continued to get worse for my sons and I, to the point where my physical and psychological health were deteriorating greatly and to a dangerous and terrible level that could've ended badly. So, just my own opinion, although I understand it's in our tradition, I don't think that type of advice is good to give.

 

[rusmeister]

again, you do find this in the saints though. so it’s not bad advice in all cases. now, whether or not it’s bad advice in this case is another thing.

Well, I imagine you could produce something from a couple of saints. But I think that even i you do, it will prove to be an extreme exception, a one-in-a-million case. I refuse to grant that such an extreme exception binds us to a refusal to decide whether it is good or bad in general to ask for mental or spiritual illness. We ought to ask for clarity of thought, and spiritual insight, even if our bodies are falling apart. I was speaking in general, and that means at least most cases, allowing for a very few exceptions. The greater danger is the desire of the 99% who seek Church approval of divorce to be seen as the 1%. Speaking roughly, we ALL tend to see our own situation as exceptional, and few things are easier in the face of a demand to shoulder a hard burden than excuses not to.