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Featured Is temptation, in and of itself, sin?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by public hermit, Apr 7, 2021 at 4:49 PM.

  1. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

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    I believe the Reformers, generally speaking, equated concupiscence with the state of original sin, something like having a “sin nature”. Catholicism denies this, seeing concupiscence as the “tinder for sin”, a result of original sin but not the essence of it as that would make it impossible for man to combat. As it is, fallen man is not changed in nature or totally depraved but weakened in will, attracted to lesser, created things over the Creator, with little control over his natural desires and appetites to the extent that he’s not in a state of full subjugation to and communion with God, a relationship structured on love.

    Those desires, God-created as they are, become harmful, corrupted, disordered, sinful when they become a god or idol in and of themselves. John speaks of this three-fold covetousness in 1 John 2:16,
    For everything in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--comes not from the Father but from the world.”

    This is where normal and healthy desires or needs become lust: for pleasure, for wealth/possessions, and for self/glorification, the worldly things that we tend to drool over. So, for example, desire for money and the necessary security it brings is right until it becomes greed or miserliness, the center of our focus where we base our worth and happiness around it. We have control over this, we can resist the temptations and overcome it, with struggle but now with the help of grace:
    “So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

    Man is inevitably sinful to the extent that he’s separated or apart from God, the state of being that Adam opted for. The basis of man’s justice or righteousness is communion with God.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 5:41 AM
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  2. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    Being at her doorway in a personal context (while not yet sin) is definitely not neutral.
     
  3. GraceBro

    GraceBro Eternally Forgiven, Alive, and Secure.

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    Mankind was created by God with the need for love, acceptance, meaning, and purpose to life. However, He created us in such a way that only He can meet those needs in Christ Jesus through the indwelling Holy Spirit. But, what people do is they look to the world and the people around them as if they were put there for the purpose of meeting those needs. Temptation is not a sin. However, what temptations do is they tempt the needs that we have. The temptation comes along and says, "If you sin, then you will feel that you are loved, that you have a purpose in life, and that you will be accepted if you engage in sin." But, when you rest in God's love, acceptance, and purpose, then these sins will no longer have any meaning. You will say no to sin because you don't want to sin. You will be at peace and you will be at rest in your heart because of what you have received from your God.
     
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  4. Cormack

    Cormack “I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”

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    So true. :tearsofjoy:
     
  5. chad kincham

    chad kincham Well-Known Member

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    If it was, then Jesus sinned when tempted by Satan for 40 days... and we know He’s sinless.

    You can relax over this one..
     
  6. daydreameranastasia

    daydreameranastasia Just a library lady

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    Idk whenever I’m tempted I (try) to say Go away like Matt 4:10
     
  7. Sabertooth

    Sabertooth Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints! Supporter

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    "Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you."
    James 4:7 NKJV​
     
  8. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    :oldthumbsup:
    That's the Scriptural position.

    No.
    I don't know what Calvin was talking about, but after his baptism, Jesus was led into the wilderness, by the Spirit, to be tempted, Mark 1:12, Luke 4:1. That would imply that the Spirit sent Jesus off to sin.
    If Jesus had sinned, he could not have died for our sins = no Christian faith.
     
  9. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    No, that's the devil/our sinful human nature trying to pull us away from God.
    It's not a sin unless we give into it.

    Apart from the wilderness, Jesus once prayed "if it is possible let this cup pass from me" - there were, at least, a few seconds where the Son of God wanted/asked for another way of accomplishing God's will.
    But that wasn't sin.
    If it had been, he would not have been sinless and qualified to bear the sins of the world; so he might as well have avoided the cross.
     
  10. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    the desire is temptation, the tickled part is acting on temptation
     
  11. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    I can't tell of you're interpreting Calvin's statement or disagreeing with it. He clearly means to say the "tickled part" is the desire.
     
  12. chilehed

    chilehed Veteran

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    I did read the full post.

    Make up your mind: either all temptation is sin, or it's not.

    Here's a hint: not only did Jesus not commit a sin for which he was not culpable, but he did not commit even the slightest sin at all.

    I'm not the one who sounds confused here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2021 at 6:48 AM
  13. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    I thought about something you said on another thread (can't remember where). You mentioned something to the effect that we too often think of Jesus as a kind of superman who was beyond the vicissitudes of human experience. You were saying it doesn't do justice to the Incarnation. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it seemed to apply here.
     
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  14. spiritfilledjm

    spiritfilledjm Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Nope, Calvin was wrong, Augustine was right. If it was a sin, we would not even be tempted because by being tempted at all, that would be a sin and therefore that would mean that there is no door for us to get away from our temptation before we act on it and it becomes a sin. Therefore, Calvin's view completely nullifies 1 Corinthians 10:13.
     
  15. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Are you referring to his comment regarding his disciples who, exhausted with sorrow (Luke 22:45), he found sleeping (Matthew 22:41)?
    Because theirs was "sinful flesh" with a moral weakness Jesus did not have.

    Are you saying Jesus personally experienced the "sin" problem?
    Or just that flesh, in and of itself, is limited and, therefore, "weak"?
     
  16. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Would not his strong natural desire to avoid the pain and suffering of the cross, "overwhelming him with sorrow to the point of death" (Matthew 26:38), constitute subjective temptation?

    Am I missing something obvious here?
     
  17. TedT

    TedT Member since Job 38:7

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    Consider:
    James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.… tells us that righteousness, ie GOD, does not tempt people but people are only tempted by their inner sinful desires. No personal evil desires, no temptation, so it might not be a sin to be tempted but since only a sinner can be tempted it is a sure sign of sinfulness.
     
  18. DamianWarS

    DamianWarS Follower of Isa Al Masih Supporter

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    my point is that temptation is not sin, Christ was tempted and Christ did not sin. However, if we become so engrossed by our temptations that they "tickle" us then we are inviting the temptation in and we have already sinned within our heart. Christ himself picks up on this in Matthew 5 that sin starts in the heart. I may look at a woman, recognize she is beautiful and then I may take a longer look. With the longer look, I am tickling the temptation and the violation has already started.
     
  19. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    I don't think your missing anything. I'm assuming, rightly or wrongly, that Jesus experienced more temptations than just the wilderness experience and the garden experience.

    Mostly, I have in mind Hebrews 4:15

    "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin."

    What is the reference of "in every respect"?

    Is it the objective forms of temptation, so that he was tempted objectively in all the ways we are tempted. Is it the internal/subjective experience of desiring the objective temptation? Both?

    I take it both Aquinas and Calvin would say that Jesus did not experience the internal desire to sin. He was objectively tempted in all the ways we are, but no internal impulse to acquiesce.
     
  20. public hermit

    public hermit social troglodyte Supporter

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    This is the part that causes the question. If only sinners can be tempted, then Jesus was not tempted, right?
     
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