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Yes, that was good. . .but his full Biblical explanation in the power of the Word.Which part? Where he says temptation is not a sin, but can be a sin?
Think: "T" of T.U.L.I.P. That's all Calvin is asserting here
mptations, but his internal desire for food remained rightly ordered and thus the desire came from the Devil but not from "the flesh.
Jesus said the desire to sin is sin.I don't have to be sinless to know what it is to be tempted and not give in. If he was tempted in every respect as we are, then he knows what it means to be tempted. I don't mean simply an objective temptation, but the subjective experience of having a desire, however slight, to sin and yet refraining.
So, in a sense, Aquinas agrees with Calvin in that an internal desire towards the object of temptation is a sin. Am I reading that right?
So traditional theology would say that Christ was tempted externally in the same way that we are tempted externally, but not internally in the same way that we are tempted internally.)
"sin can occur in the absence of the will."
I saw you make this point earlier in the thread. I think it is a strong objection against traditional theology on this topic. On the other hand, in a prima facie sense it seems like Jesus just wasn't tempted as we are... That is, it is hard to know where that objection ever stops, precisely because it is hard to know where temptation ends and sin begins. Yet I tend to think that no matter where we place that dividing line, it will feel a bit arbitrary, and thus the objection will retain some degree of potency
I agree, it's hard to know where to draw the line. If we keep it fuzzy and say he experienced the desire towards the object of temptation but didn't dwell on it ("set his heart on it") that makes some sense. But to try to get a fine grained demarcation between the two is difficult. Or, we could take the route that Thomas seems to take and just say the temptation was purely objective, and forego any subjective experience for Jesus, in terms of desire for the object of temptation.
Right, and I think Aquinas and Calvin would agree that Christ did not experience internal desires to sin.
The OP gets really tricky when we get to human nature, Original Sin, and the hypostatic union. That's what I don't want to touch
Culpability for a sin requires some consent on our own part, and so by definition it cannot be a sin to experience a feeling which arrives unbidden. Being tempted is one thing, and consenting to temptation is another.I can understand that. What is temptation? Is it not a desire for the thing that tempts?
It was probably more like Adam & Eve when they did not [yet] have a predisposition to sin, that we now have. (I don't think that He must have that predisposition to relate to us.)What does being tempted "in every respect" mean if not in the sense of our subjective experience of being tempted?
At any rate, what do you think. Is being tempted itself a sin?
Another thing: to tempt is to attempt to persuade another to do something. By definition when that streetwalker tried to get me to buy what she was selling I was being tempted, even though I hadn't the slightest desire to do what she wanted and it happened completely without any initiative on my part.I can understand that. What is temptation? Is it not a desire for the thing that tempts?
"Remove your way far from [the adulteress],All temptation is neutral, and all temptation is inevitable it is how we respond that matters
No unless we are the tempter. If Satan tempts us however we cannot control that. ALL we can do is resist him, but we cannot control what he does. ,,but say that Satan tempted me to flirt with a married guy, I should be able to discern this and ward him off, but if I was unaware of enemy tactics and I fell for it and flirted? Yes I would be guilty of sin. Even if nothing happened, I would know he is married, would have ill intentions, and would know it was wrong and though it's not one of the 10 commandments, I would be considered as playing the harlot and that is sinful.I think most Christians would say that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin. However, I came across a contrary view regarding temptation held by John Calvin. Calvin, who usually agrees with virtually anything Augustine says, takes a different view of temptation.
"Content to designate it with the term "weakness," he (Augustine) teaches that it becomes sin only when either act or consent follows the conceiving or apprehension of it, that is, when the will yields to the first strong inclination. We, on the other hand, deem it sin when man is tickled by any desire at all against the law of God. Indeed, we label "sin" that very depravity which begets in us desires of this sort" (Institutes III.III.10).
One possibility is that Calvin is being inconsistent. Perhaps in other places he argues that temptation, in and of itself, is not sin but then fails to be consistent in this passage. As it stands, this passage clearly indicates that temptation is sin. In fact, the nature that could possibly sin (i.e. depraved nature) is itself sin, according to Calvin.
That's an odd position to hold, in my opinion. What would make this opinion even more controversial is the implications it has for our Lord's Incarnation. I think the orthodox position is that our Lord was tempted, but did not sin. If Calvin argues that our Lord was tempted, then (based on this passage) he would also have to conclude that our Lord sinned in even being tempted. I seriously doubt Calvin would be comfortable with that conclusion (although, Calvin is comfortable with all kinds of positions that make most folks uncomfortable). So, assuming the above passage is his settled position, Calvin is not being consistent.
At any rate, what do you think. Is being tempted itself a sin?
The OP gets really tricky when we get to human nature, Original Sin, and the hypostatic union. That's what I don't want to touch
Right. I don't know how to navigate those difficulties. But, as @Pavel Mosko pointed out earlier, it can tend towards Apollinarianism to exempt him the internal experiences common to other humans, perhaps.
"Remove your way far from [the adulteress],
And do not go near the door of her house,
Lest you give your honor to others,
And your years to the cruel one;..." Proverbs 5:8-9 NKJV
So in being tempted in the desert, Jesus sinned?
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