If God wills/creates evil does He have malice? Or is His purpose very different-to allow creation-us-to experiment with our rebellious and wayward ways in order that we might learn of their empty and harmful consequences, that we might turn from ungodliness to godliness, that we might turn from evil to good having directly learned of the distinction between the two the hard way-and of the supreme value of the latter.
All of this brings up some very important theological truths. With free will creation can oppose the very will of God, and once that opposition, that rebellion, that evil, has occurred, any such being can and will try to influence other similarly equipped beings. Man’s unique position is that he’s given time within which to use that same free will to freely return to alignment with the Creator’s will, with nature, with Reality, even as grace, God’s help, is an essential part of the endeavor. IOW we can work out our salvation with He who works in us.On the one hand, and at one level, Agreed.
But, what is going on with the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God and Creator who:
1. Created the universe with the potential for sin
2. Created the man and woman with the potential for sin
3. Tested the man and woman
4. Allowed His known adversary to interact with and influence the woman
Did He not know what would take place? It sounds over-simplistic at this point to just leave it at Him not wanting Adam... And discussing this as 2 wills seems pointless and not a real point. Are all of His subsequent works and His plan of salvation reactive?
There's a much bigger picture here. When God put's man in place, was not a large part of the angelic realm already in rebellion? Isn't God resolving this situation with His creation of mankind?
When God creates man He's already dealing with rejection and rebellion in His creation. Surely He wants and will ultimately have willingly obedient love in all His creatures who remain. Agreed, He wanted Adam to love/obey Him, but did He not know before creation what Adam would do, and what it would take to have what He ultimately wills?
It seems to me we're underestimating what it takes to end up with a creature who will choose love and obedience over rebellion, and thus we're underestimating what God is doing within His perfect and holy character to accomplish it.
Or are you suggesting that God gave the law because He likes to spread evil?? Could He have a greater good in mind instead?
That's where man's will comes into the mix, rather than God simply determining that this one should go to heaven while this one burns eternally, with no criteria other than His fiat, the reprobate given no opportunity to contribute anything to either their own demise or potential salvation. Here're some true teachings, where the role of man's part of the equation is emphasized:But it only teaches some of man sufficiently to bring them to Him in repentance.
All of this brings up some very important theological truths. With free will creation can oppose the very will of God, and once that opposition, that rebellion, that evil, has occurred, any such being can and will try to influence other similarly equipped beings. Man’s unique position is that he’s given time within which to use that same free will to freely return to alignment with the Creator’s will, with nature, with Reality, even as grace, God’s help, is an essential part of the endeavor. IOW we can work out our salvation with He who works in us.
In the bigger picture God made His world "en statu viae", in a "state of journeying" to perfection as it's been taught. The Church has even referred to Adam's sin as the "blessed fault" for winning us so great a Redeemer. The idea is that God can only be opposed to evil but can nonetheless use it to ultimately bring about an even greater good, knowing the beginning from the end as only He does. We can understand His purposes vaguely but, yes, to love God with one's whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and ones neighbor as oneself is a tall order, impossible without grace. But man's justice or righteousness, defined primarily by that love, is all the greater to the extent that he's participated in and chosen it willingly. God is meaning to produce something out of this grand project known as creation, something great, something noble and grand itself, something better than He began with, rather than just-almost reluctantly?-save one group of otherwise worthless wretches while damning the rest. Of course He knew what Adam would do-and yet that doesn't make what Adam did right.
Ok? And presumably that means getting it there by a means deeper than simple predeterminism.I've said this in essence before and will say it again, You express yourself eloquently and I enjoy your writing. I have had extensive agreement with and appreciation for what you've said.
I don't think there's any disagreement about Adam not doing what was right. I also don't disagree what you're saying about God's intentions through His grace. As I just said in a preceding post, I think the questions are related to a deeper query about the depths of His will and how He functions to get His creation where He intends to take it.
That's where man's will comes into the mix, rather than God simply determining that this one should go to heaven while this one burns eternally, with no criteria other than His fiat, the reprobate given no opportunity to contribute anything to either their own demise or potential salvation. Here're some true teachings, where the role of man's part of the equation is emphasized:
Ok? And presumably that means getting it there by a means deeper than simple predeterminism.
He knows the beginning from the end while we exist in time and experience life-and choose how we’ll live it-sequentially. And so the drama unfolds, and the choices have consequences, regardless of God’s foreknowledge.And I go back to what I said earlier, Is He reactive and making this up as He goes? Does anything catch Him by surprise? Does He just know all the possibilities and wait to see which one will come about?
All true, and yet we simply cannot take man’s will out of the process either, simply because God wants it involved and created man as a morally responsible being.I've no questions about man's responsibilities given the abilities God has given to us. I have zero thoughts that anything and everything He does is not righteous and just.
My questions, again, boil down to His will and how He does things. As I said earlier, we can say He did not want Adam to fail Him, and on the one hand this is certainly true. But, on, the other hand, He designed His entire creation to provide for the potential of failure, and He allowed (as you were pointing our before your hiatus, which I completely understand, BTW. I take them also for similar reasons and purposes) things to take place and provided the command that would be the basis of man's failure. I see that He did all of this knowing what would happen and what it would take to resolve everything for the ultimate love.
Thus, it seems, as I said, overly simplistic to look at His will on one level. His will, will ultimately be done to produce what He ultimately wills. Is it not at least in some way His will for us to go through whatever is needed to get us there?
He knows the beginning from the end while we exist in time and experience life-and choose how we’ll live it-sequentially. And so the drama unfolds, and the choices have consequences, regardless of God’s foreknowledge.
All true, and yet we simply cannot take man’s will out of the process either, simply because God wants it involved and created man as a morally responsible being.
Incidentally, the reason I gave for my hiatus was mainly tongue in cheek. The truth was that work has been really busy. Thank you for the civil manner BTW. I probably get a bit defensive at times.
Do the unregenerate experience this as a punishment phase?I loosely threw out "sentenced servitude" after talking about "penal servitude" for katakrima. They were meant to be synonymous. The point being that we were existing in a condition that's beyond the judicial phase and is in a punishment phase from which we can be freed by Christ.
5:16, 18, and 8:1 are talking about existence in the punishment now
Okay, I think this is where our difference occurs. Do I have the following correct?based upon the trespass of Adam, that will be carried out in finality at the last judgment/second death on those who do not come to Christ for justification, etc.
5:18 is tied to to 8:1. We can add 5:16 and then we have the 3 times Paul uses this word katakrima. 5:16 shows that judgment/krima resulted in an existence in penal servitude/katakrima (krima > katakrima).
So those redeemed in Christ by his atonement are still in a punishment phase of sin and death?5:18 shows that one trespass resulted in katakrima for all people. Combined:
one trespass > judgment > penal servitude for all people.
But it's "servitude" and despair only to the redeemed, the unregenerate are basically comfortable with their nature and sin, and experience no punishment of "servitude."7:24 is despair of what it's like to exist in this katakrima.
But the solution, Christ's atonement, does not free us from sin and death in this life, which is the punishment phase now, it frees us from the second death and the lake of fire at the final judgment.7:25 is like an epiphany in thanks to Christ Jesus for the solution
But Paul is still subject to sin, with which he must still deal (1 Corinthians 9:27), and to death.and then the conclusion about the condition, leading into the freedom in Christ from the katakrima and existence under subjection to sin and death.
But the body of death is experienced only by the redeemed, the unregenerate do not experience it as any kind of punishment. So only the redeemed experience any punishment now by sin and death?This is essentially part of the penal servitude that's being discussed. We could not free ourselves from this body of death that was overriding our will to obey God.
When the point is made that God cannot will or be the direct cause of evil, believers often bring up Is 45:7 along with deferring to God's sovereignty and infinite superiority, using passages from Rom 9, for one, as well as Is 55:8-9, as if any of that means that evil might be ok for Him I guess. Surely God is ultimately in control of all of His creation and far, far superior to it and yet if one wishes to support the concept that God's sovereignty means that no man finally wills other than how God determines him to will, where no other cause but Himself can said to be involved at the end of the day, then malice would have to be attributed to Him as malice is simply and obviously often a motivation for heinous acts that humans commit.Why "malice"? Why do we even unwittingly give place to the viewpoints of many atheists and other unlearned who speak of the mean and brutal OT God?
Do the unregenerate experience this as a punishment phase?
Does Christ free the redeemed from sin and death, which is the punishment phase?
When the point is made that God cannot will or be the direct cause of evil, believers often bring up Is 45:7 along with deferring to God's sovereignty and infinite superiority, using passages from Rom 9, for one, as well as Is 55:8-9, as if any of that means that evil might be ok for Him I guess.
Okay. . .Yes and Yes.
I think the best way to answer you is to bullet point Romans 5-7 to some degree and point out a few things:
Under the federal headship of Adam (the pattern for Christ the second Adam) Death ruled from Adam to Moses 5:14:
- Through Adam sin entered the world
- Death entered the world through sin
- All men sinned
· Death spread to all men 5:12
- By Adam’s violation many died 5:15
- Adam’s sin resulted in judgment then penal servitude 5:16
Okay. . .you say it's physical death, I see it as eternal death, the second death.- Adam’s violation resulted in death ruling through Adam 5:17- Through Adam’s disobedience many were made sinners 5:19
- Adam’s one violation resulted in penal servitude for all men 5:18
Here's where we're seeing the Text tell us what the katakrima is: In Adam, man was judged and placed under servitude to death - death literally reigns/rules.
However the parallels are of imputation--of sin of Adam and of righteousness of ChristSide-Note also how Sin/Violation/Disobedience are being used in parallel.
Continuing:
From Moses to Christ (with death still ruling and sin active):
- The law entered to cause the violation/sin to increase 5:20
- The law works to accomplish wrath 4:15
- Sin ruled in death 5:21
- All Jews and Greeks are under subjection to sin 3:9
What is death ruling?Now note how sin is also ruling and think back about katakrima. People are literally being ruled by sin and death.
This is part of the reason I told you that "under" more precisely means "under subjection to." All are under subjection to sin and death. Sin and death are ruling. This is the penal servitude - katakrima - brought on by Adam in what is typically referred to as his federal headship, which is a pattern for the federal headship of the second Adam. Note the "slaves language that follows:
- Slaves of uncleanness and lawlessness to more lawlessness 6:19- Torah has authority over a man while he lives 7:1
- Slaves of sin 6:20
- Producing fruit for death (death is the compensation for sin) 6:21, 23
- When in the flesh, the sinful passions were working through the law resulting in producing fruit for death 7:5
- Sin takes opportunity through the commandment and works to accomplish every desire/lust 7:8
- The commandment provides for sin to come alive and we die 7:9
- Sin takes opportunity through the commandment to deceive and kill us 7:11
- Sin works to accomplish death in us through the good [law] so the sin will shine/become visible – through the commandment it becomes excessively sinful 7:13
- We find that evil is present in us 7:21
- We see a different law/authority in our body parts making war against the law/authority of our mind and taking us captive to the law/authority of sin existing in our body parts 7:23
- We’re miserable/wretched people in need of Christ who will rescue us from this body of death! 7:24
This is all the penal servitude under subjection to sin and death and then under subjection to Law to aid us in understanding the subjection and what's ruling us. Paul will go on and explain how Christ has freed us from this penal servitude - katakrima. He also has been explaining this in comparing what happens with the Second Adam by the pattern in the first Adam.
But we still die. We have not been rescued from the authority of physical death,We still battle against sin, but it has no authority/rule (literally it shall not lord it over you) under grace. In Christ/Second Adam we have been
rescued and saved from being under the rule and authority of sin and death - justified, acquitted, etc., etc., - no longer under penal servitude
Except where it doesn't. . .based in the first Adam. We are under subjection to God, His grace, His Son, His Spirit and it's our commanded responsibility to remain in willing submission to Him as He writes His Law on our hearts and transfigures us.
Make sense?
You say the punishment = earthly servitude, I see it as punishment = eternal damnation
Okay. . .you say it's physical death, I see it as eternal death, the second death.
Okay. . .so if katakrima is physical death, etc., and there is no katakrima for those in Christ (Ro 8:1),Death ruling - living in [spiritual] death and mortality from Genesis 3:7 and then under the curses of Genesis 3. There was judgment and living in an imprisoned servitude prior to the Law and Paul makes this clear by saying death ruled when speaking of katakrima.
There is something interesting regarding being ruled by death and sin if you caught it in Romans: prior to the Law it says death was ruling and in Genesis 4:7 God warns Cain about doing good and ruling over sin (1st mention of sin and pre-Law). After Law Paul speaks of sin ruling.
Actually I see it as spiritual death/separation from God and mortality
leading either to death with Christ and the new birth through Faith, or remaining in spiritual death with sin and death ruling - leading to all being resurrected, some to eternal life through abiding Faith, and some through no Faith to eternal death at the last judgment.