Is Supersessionism really a controversial position?

[khristosanesti]

I'll be honest I didn't even know this word until I went down the Wikipedia rabbit hole.

Supersessionism is the idea that before Christ came Judaism was the true faith but when Christ was born, lived, performed miracles, was crucified for our sins and resurrected he completed Judaism since Christ is the Messiah that the Jewish people had been awaiting and now Christianity is the truth faith.


I thought that this was just common sense, but apparently it's controversial in some circles because it denies the current validity of the Jewish faith. I don't get that, since of course if Christ is the truth then ipso facto non-Christian religions are not.


I'm Eastern Orthodox by the way.


What's your opinion on this?

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm not really familiar with the term, so it might have other implications I might not agree with - I don't know.

But as far as what you said, it seemed common sense to me also. If Christ is the Messiah, then He is the fulfillment of Judaism, so what more do they have to look forward to, outside of Christ? (I'm not commenting on God's intentions toward Israel, that is HIS business.) But as for validity of faith, it has been fulfilled. If you reject the fulfillment, the rest is now empty, because Christ has already come.

That does, however, open something of an interesting point. Christ IS coming again, of course, to judge the living and the dead, and His Kingdom will then be established and will never end.

I don't know that much about Judaism, but isn't that what they expect from their Messiah? It's interesting that they missed the Gospel, but still that Christ may yet fulfill what they expect? I'm not sure if that's accurate to say - as I said, my knowledge of Judaism is too limited.

Not to mention what that might mean for God's dealings with them. But I refuse to speculate on that.

However, basically, yes, it seems to me that Judaism has been fulfilled, whether they realize it or not, and if Christ is the Son of God, then Christianity must be the right faith from that point onward, logically speaking.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Except Christ Himselfs refers back to the Jewish scripture so it's not a complete highjack from Judaism. Paul says the lessons left there are for our example.

 

[Greg J.]

@khristosanesti, yes, it is a controversial issue, because some aspects will be fulfilled spiritually and others will be fulfilled in the physical realm, and so incorrect deductions are made by people. For example, that all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) is true for the spirit of Israel, but is not true "physically" (people will still face Judgment for what they have done as individuals).

 

[food4thought]

God is finished with the OT covenant, therefore Judaism is empty religion. God is not finished with the Jewish people.

 

[Albion]

God is finished with the OT covenant, therefore Judaism is empty religion. God is not finished with the Jewish people.

Good point. There is a difference between the Jewish religion itself...and the place of the Jewish people in God's plans, etc.

 

[khristosanesti]

Except Christ Himselfs refers back to the Jewish scripture so it's not a complete highjack from Judaism. Paul says the lessons left there are for our example.

Of course he does. He fulfills it. He has completed it. Judaism post-Christ is incomplete. He is the messiah they're awaiting, he already came.

 

[khristosanesti]

God is finished with the OT covenant, therefore Judaism is empty religion. God is not finished with the Jewish people.

So are you saying Jews should become Christians but retain their specific Jewish identity? Wasn't this condemned in the Book of Acts as the Judaizer heresy?

 

[khristosanesti]

@khristosanesti, yes, it is a controversial issue, because some aspects will be fulfilled spiritually and others will be fulfilled in the physical realm, and so incorrect deductions are made by people. For example, that all Israel will be saved (Romans 11:26) is true for the spirit of Israel, but is not true "physically" (people will still face Judgment for what they have done as individuals).

Christ is the New Israel, Israel no longer refers to the Hebrew people.

 

[Greg J.]

That's one side of the controversy. Do you think any of God's promises to the Jews/Israel remain for the Jews/Israel?

 

[khristosanesti]

That's one side of the controversy. Do you think any of God's promises to the Jews/Israel remain for the Jews/Israel?

His promises to them specifically that have not been fulfilled pre-Christ are now promises to the body of Christ, the Church. I actually spoke with my Priest about this.


He chose that nation to reveal himself as the one true God, but now he brought the whole world into his graces. I see the Jewish faith as sort of an...anachronism. The Jews keep the law so that the Messiah will come but he already came. They should become Christian. That doesn't mean that they should give up their heritage just like my ancestors didn't when they stopped being English and Irish pagans.

 

[food4thought]

So are you saying Jews should become Christians but retain their specific Jewish identity? Wasn't this condemned in the Book of Acts as the Judaizer heresy?

Paul condemns those who try to force gentiles to become Jews in order to be saved, nowhere does it say that Jews can't maintain there cultural identity. If that were the case, we would have to give up a bunch of western customs and preferences.

 

[food4thought]

That's one side of the controversy. Do you think any of God's promises to the Jews/Israel remain for the Jews/Israel?

Yes I do. The Jewish people have been given promises that never were fulfilled, and will be in the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[khristosanesti]

Paul condemns those who try to force gentiles to become Jews in order to be saved, nowhere does it say that Jews can't maintain there cultural identity. If that were the case, we would have to give up a bunch of western customs and preferences.

I never said anything about their cultural identity. If they want to identify with Jewish culture like I identify with Anglo American culture that's fine but once they become Christians they should not keep the laws of the Torah directed towards Jews like circumcision and keeping Kosher.

 

[food4thought]

I never said anything about their cultural identity. If they want to identify with Jewish culture like I identify with Anglo American culture that's fine but once they become Christians they should not keep the laws of the Torah directed towards Jews like circumcision and keeping Kosher.

But that IS their culture... even atheist Jews have their children circumcised and most of them keep some aspects of the kosher laws, too.

 

[khristosanesti]

But that IS their culture... even atheist Jews have their children circumcised and most of them keep the kosher laws, too.

No those are religious traditions masquerading as culture. It was part of pagan Greek culture to worship Zeus, they stopped that and moved on it doesn't mean they no longer read Plato.


Circumcision is a barbaric practice anyway

 

[Greg J.]

Another important point in the controversy is that the Jews/Israel were/are special because God associated his Name with them. That is something that did not change with Christ. It has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of the Jews/Israel, or saved people for that matter.

 

[khristosanesti]

Another important point in the controversy is that the Jews/Israel were/are special because God associated his Name with them. That is something that did not change with Christ. It has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of the Jews/Israel, or saved people for that matter.

God associated his name with them and made them special before the coming of the Messiah, but after that the message was made universal. Now the Jewish people are no more distinct than any other non-Christian ethnoreligious group aside from the fact that at least they worship the real God just in an anachronistic way that has been replaced. Most of the ancient Hebrews actually became Christians and assimilated to the Hellenistic and later Arab culture around them. Some of them converted to Islam later on, their ancestors are known as Palestinians. Israeli academic Shlomo Sand did pretty conclusive genetic research on this. The Hebrews that didn't become Christian sort of dug their heels in and modern Rabbinic Judaism (the Talmud and all that) grew out of that mentality and defined Judaism against Christianity.

 

[Greg J.]

It is one thing to believe that saved people will inherit the promises God gave to the Jews, and quite another to believe that his promises no longer apply to the Jews. Christians were ingrafted branches into something that still existed in Paul's time. Do you have verses that indicates that God will no longer keep his promises made to the descendants of the Jews?

 

[khristosanesti]

It is one thing to believe that saved people will inherit the promises God gave to the Jews, and quite another to believe that his promises no longer apply to the Jews. Do you have verses that indicates that God will no longer keep his promises made to the descendants of the Jews?

The descendants of the Jews are Christians! By that I mean that the Jewish religion gave way to the Christian faith with the coming of our blessed Lord.


Read this, from the Russian Orthodox Church (my church)

Fr. John Whiteford. The New Israel, New Jerusalem / OrthoChristian.Com