Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That all sounds very eloquent but where is your scriptural justification for all those assertions? If any claimed doctrine cannot be supported by scripture then it does not mean a jot I'm afraid. Maybe that is why someone (Someone?) put a line through most of it.

I don't know how the line got through most of it. I don't think anyone else could have done it because no one else can edit my posts. It happened once before and I don't know whether it was something do with the "the nut who is controlling the keyboard"

Any, it is presumption to say that all Pentecostal prophecy and interpretation are false. No one can know that for sure. One say say, "I believe that Pentecostal prophecy is false", because that is one expressing their own belief and not making an authoritative statement in the same manner as they might say, "Thus says the Lord, Pentecostal prophecy is false." Making a statement like this could be taking the Lord's name in vain by attributing something as from the Lord when in fact it is from a person's own theology and belief. Conversely, a person could say, "Thus says the Lord, Pentecostal prophecy is genuine" and they would be taking the Lord's name in vain as well.

The reality is that no one really knows whether prophecy in our modern church is true or false to the point where they can say authoritatively one way or the other. As I said before, prophecies are given in faith and received in faith, and are recorded and judged by those qualified to judge prophecy.

 

[Biblicist]

You are right for once....a congregational apostle is not a spiritual gift, an apostle of Christ is. It was someone divinely commissioned, and placed within the universal Church along with those possessing the gifts of prophecy, teaching, miracles, healings, helps, administrations, tongues and interpretations of tongues in 1 Cor 12:28-31.

I suppose that a qualification is in order in that neither the congregational apostle and those who are Apostles-of-Christ are so called 'spiritual gifts'.

Those who were Apostles-of-Christ, such as the Twelve, where Matthias replaced Judas and Paul who as an Apostle-of-Christ was never one of the Twelve, were given their 'Office' by appointment by Christ and there is certainly no spiritual endowment or "gifting" in play.

As I in in the office at the moment I will have to reply in more detail sometime later in the day.

The TDNT says nothing of the sort. You are trying to twist their words, just as you do with scripture. It does not say anything requires further discussion. It says a distinction needs to be made between apostles in the absolute sense (ie the normal NT use of the word referring to a divinely appointed apostle of Christ) and apostles of the churches. And then in the case of Barnabas it proceeds to gives the reasons why he is the former type and then makes the clear conclusion: "Paul and Barnabas are obviously apostles of Christ, not of the Christians at Antioch" - contrary to your claim.

If you are still in any doubt then see my additional quote from the TDNT's listing of the meaning of the word apostolos where you will note that Barnabas is not included in Section (d) - "the commissioned representative of a congregation", but rather he is listed in Section (e) - the group of apostles which "shares with the twelve the common basis of a meeting with the risen Lord and commissioning by him personally". You will note also that 1 Cor 12:28 is also included in this section, again contrary to your claim that apostles here are everyday church planters, which you unconvincingly call 'congregational apostles'.

As you have completely misread the paragraph from TDNTT I will address it later tonight - hopefully.

As usual we can see the bulk of your responses consists of nothing more than childish insults and lies. As well as being against the rules of this forum, your repeated use of the ad-hominem fallacy is a sure sign of someone who is unable to refute the arguments of their opponents.

Ad hominem (Latin for "to the man" or "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself.​

How can my remarks be in error as you are obviously a novice to the better secondary material, as are probably most of the forum members who are on this thread, there is nothing wrong with that as we all have to start somewhere; but, for those who are obviously new to the various Greek lexicons and the better commentaries and who sometimes seem to be completely unaware of who the more renowned scholars are who have addressed this subject, then they need to approach their material very carefully and not insert their own thoughts as being theirs.

Remember, you are the one who loves to throw around insults but I will admit that I tend to be better at having a jibe at you - even when you are not even aware that I am doing so. If you can behave in a more mature and responsible manner and not go off the planet as you often do then you will not leave yourself open to some well deserved banter.

 

[Biblicist]

I don't know how the line got through most of it. I don't think anyone else could have done it because no one else can edit my posts. It happened once before and I don't know whether it was something do with the "the nut who is controlling the keyboard"

Any, it is presumption to say that all Pentecostal prophecy and interpretation are false. No one can know that for sure. One say say, "I believe that Pentecostal prophecy is false", because that is one expressing their own belief and not making an authoritative statement in the same manner as they might say, "Thus says the Lord, Pentecostal prophecy is false." Making a statement like this could be taking the Lord's name in vain by attributing something as from the Lord when in fact it is from a person's own theology and belief. Conversely, a person could say, "Thus says the Lord, Pentecostal prophecy is genuine" and they would be taking the Lord's name in vain as well.

The reality is that no one really knows whether prophecy in our modern church is true or false to the point where they can say authoritatively one way or the other. As I said before, prophecies are given in faith and received in faith, and are recorded and judged by those qualified to judge prophecy.

You might find that the region that has the strike-through feature through it, that it has somehow been enclosed with the strike-through command, which is S & /S.

 

[Biblicist]

Thank you !!!!

I am and have said many times that I am just an old country boy from the great Promised Land of N.A.

No more and no less!

Actually my education was drummed into me before the 70's and I had the great opportunity to sit under some of the greatest theological minds who ever cracked a Bible open.

Whether something is old or new, if it is Biblically correct then it is acceptable for doctrine and reproof.

If we accept that a teaching has to be "New" then by that standard everything in the Bible would be suspect wouldn't it. I mean by that that Creation is 6000 years old or older so we can discount it on the basis of it being to old to be acceptable.

No sir, I understand what you are saying but I am going to stick with the same horse I picked out 50 years ago to ride to the end of the race.

But again......thanks for the compliment and I am blessed that something I have said to you caused you to sit and consider me and my thoughts and give a nice response as you did.

Even though certain Biblical truths have been restored down through the ages, such as with the Reformation and with numerous other spiritual-reformations since this time; it does intrigue me that the foundations of the Full Gospel have only been in evidence for little more than a century. But, this was the same argument that Rome used against the Reformers in that much of what they were saying was unknown to Rome for many centuries.

On the flip side, having gone through a number of older commentaries on First Corinthians over the past couple of weeks, I am been impressed with a lot of the commentary that I have seen, where previously I had falsely presumed that they were writing as cessationists, but what I am discovering (still an ongoing task), is that many seemed to have been writing not such much from within a position of antagonism but from within a vacuum, where they appear (or at least some do) that the Manifestations of the Spirit will continue up until the Lord's return but for some unknown reason they cannot quite explain why they are not in evidence within the various denominations.

 

[Biblicist]

BTW What is the BGAD lexicon, I've not come across that one before?

Oh no . . . I've done it again!

I don't suppose that if I were to say that I have the only copy of the new BDAG (had to retype that too) which is the "BGAD" that I could excuse my dyslexic moment??

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

You might find that the region that has the strike-through feature through it, that it has somehow been enclosed with the strike-through command, which is S & /S.

I was probably typing too fast and hit the wrong key in error.

 

[Major1]

Even though certain Biblical truths have been restored down through the ages, such as with the Reformation and with numerous other spiritual-reformations since this time; it does intrigue me that the foundations of the Full Gospel have only been in evidence for little more than a century. But, this was the same argument that Rome used against the Reformers in that much of what they were saying was unknown to Rome for many centuries.

On the flip side, having gone through a number of older commentaries on First Corinthians over the past couple of weeks, I am been impressed with a lot of the commentary that I have seen, where previously I had falsely presumed that they were writing as cessationists, but what I am discovering (still an ongoing task), is that many seemed to have been writing not such much from within a position of antagonism but from within a vacuum, where they appear (or at least some do) that the Manifestations of the Spirit will continue up until the Lord's return but for some unknown reason they cannot quite explain why they are not in evidence within the various denominations.

I am always amused when I see well meaning Christians use the term......"Full Gospel".

It implies that you/they have something that everyone else does not have.

Of course that completely does away with the Word of God which says that "God is not a respecter of persons."

Actually, The Full Gospel movement is Pentecostalism. According to Pentecostals, the teaching of the “full gospel” is mentioned by the apostle Paul in Romans 15:19........
“I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.”

A “Full Gospel Christian” believes that the Holy Spirit is still doing everything He was doing in the New Testament Gospels: He is still healing through the actions of men, giving the gift of tongues, men are doing and performing miracles, etc.

Since Jesus is “the same yesterday and today and forever” as seen in Hebrews 13:8, Pentecostals believe He is still operating in the world with the same methods. That verse is completely changed so as to make signs and wonders working today.

Of course for that to be the case, Scripture is altered, ignored and in some cases rejected altogether or worked at to explain what a man wants to believe instead of what is actually said in the Scriptures.

If there were still healings, one must address the question of why there are some many hospitals in the world. Why is every hospital filled with sick people when there are people who can heal the sick??????

The "Full Gospel" is a misnomer and is not a real theology at all. It is actually a "Dream" and does not correspond to reality at all.

 

[swordsman1]

Any, it is presumption to say that all Pentecostal prophecy and interpretation are false. No one can know that for sure. One say say, "I believe that Pentecostal prophecy is false", because that is one expressing their own belief and not making an authoritative statement in the same manner as they might say, "Thus says the Lord, Pentecostal prophecy is false." Making a statement like this could be taking the Lord's name in vain by attributing something as from the Lord when in fact it is from a person's own theology and belief. Conversely, a person could say, "Thus says the Lord, Pentecostal prophecy is genuine" and they would be taking the Lord's name in vain as well.

I am not being presumptuous in saying Pentecostal interpreted tongues is false prophecy. It is the logical conclusion to make when most Pentecostals believe interpreted tongues = prophecy and practice it as such, yet theologically the doctrine that tongues is a message from God to the people is impossible to draw from scripture.

As I said before, prophecies are given in faith and received in faith,

Got some scripture to back up that assertion about prophecy?

 

[swordsman1]

I suppose that a qualification is in order in that neither the congregational apostle and those who are Apostles-of-Christ are so called 'spiritual gifts'.

Those who were Apostles-of-Christ, such as the Twelve, where Matthias replaced Judas and Paul who as an Apostle-of-Christ was never one of the Twelve, were given their 'Office' by appointment by Christ and there is certainly no spiritual endowment or "gifting" in play.

As I in in the office at the moment I will have to reply in more detail sometime later in the day.

It beggars belief that someone can see the list in 1 Cor 12:28-31 not as gifts but only as 'Offices' when that word doesn't appear once, yet the word 'gift' (charisma) appears 3 times in this section alone; not to mention "There are different kinds of gifts" in v4 setting the context for the whole of the chapter. Even Pentecostalism's Gordon Fee sees them gifts.

But I'm glad to see that you finally recognize that apostles of Christ are among these 'Offices'.

How can my remarks be in error as you are obviously a novice to the better secondary material, as are probably most of the forum members who are on this thread, there is nothing wrong with that as we all have to start somewhere; but, for those who are obviously new to the various Greek lexicons and the better commentaries and who sometimes seem to be completely unaware of who the more renowned scholars are who have addressed this subject, then they need to approach their material very carefully and not insert their own thoughts as being theirs.

Seeing as it was me who taught you how to use the BDAG lexicon and to this day have to repeatedly correct your misspelling of it, then it is clearly not me who is the novice in such resources. And you have the arrogance to make yourself out to be the expert in these things?

Remember, you are the one who loves to throw around insults but I will admit that I tend to be better at having a jibe at you - even when you are not even aware that I am doing so. If you can behave in a more mature and responsible manner and not go off the planet as you often do then you will not leave yourself open to some well deserved banter.

Come off it! Your remarks are not banter or friendly jibes. You maliciously insult, mock and belittle and make false defamatory accusations against cessationists in an attempt to make them appear inferior, when it is they who have the upper hand in the theological debate which you are unable to counter. It is a classic example of the ad-hominem fallacy where someone is unable to refute an argument, so they will attack and smear the person instead. Such shameful and rude behavior is typical of bad losers who, like a spoilt child when they don't get their own way, will kick out and become abusive towards their opponents.

I do not throw insults but I will rightfully rebuke you when you behave in such a childish and spiteful manner (which is practically every time you reply to our posts). Hopefully when you eventually learn to behave like an adult and at least attempt to debate the TOPICS in a civilized way without resorting to ad-hominem smear tactics, we can move on. In the meantime may I remind of the rules of this forum which you repeatedly flaunt:

• Please treat all members with respect and courtesy through civil dialogue.

• Do not personally attack (insult, belittle, mock, ridicule) other members or groups of members on CF. Address only the content of the post and not the poster.

• NO Goading. This includes images, cartoons, smileys or post ratings which are clearly meant to goad. Quoting and then editing another members post to change the original meaning, commonly referred to as "fixed it for you" (FIFY), is considered goading.

• Offensive derogatory nicknames and egregious inflammatory comments about public figures may be considered goading.

• Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.

• When speaking about well-known, revered and highly regarded past or present leaders, theologians, saints (living or deceased) of other Nicene Christian denominations, please show a measure of respect. These public religious figures are respected by the members who belong to those denominations. Please avoid using inflammatory words or phrases in reference to these public religious figures.

 

[swordsman1]

I am always amused when I see well meaning Christians use the term......"Full Gospel".

It implies that you/they have something that everyone else does not have.

Of course that completely does away with the Word of God which says that "God is not a respecter of persons."

Actually, The Full Gospel movement is Pentecostalism. According to Pentecostals, the teaching of the “full gospel” is mentioned by the apostle Paul in Romans 15:19........
“I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.”

A “Full Gospel Christian” believes that the Holy Spirit is still doing everything He was doing in the New Testament Gospels: He is still healing through the actions of men, giving the gift of tongues, men are doing and performing miracles, etc.

Since Jesus is “the same yesterday and today and forever” as seen in Hebrews 13:8, Pentecostals believe He is still operating in the world with the same methods. That verse is completely changed so as to make signs and wonders working today.

Of course for that to be the case, Scripture is altered, ignored and in some cases rejected altogether or worked at to explain what a man wants to believe instead of what is actually said in the Scriptures.

If there were still healings, one must address the question of why there are some many hospitals in the world. Why is every hospital filled with sick people when there are people who can heal the sick??????

The "Full Gospel" is a misnomer and is not a real theology at all. It is actually a "Dream" and does not correspond to reality at all.

Indeed, it an affront to the shed blood of Christ to say that Pentecostalism is the "full gospel" as it implies the gospel of Christ is somehow lacking without it.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Indeed, it an affront to the shed blood of Christ to say that Pentecostalism is the "full gospel" as it implies the gospel of Christ is somehow lacking without it.

As a side note, I also find it intentionally offensive when the Catholic Church maintains that it alone has the "fullness of salvation" and no other church has it.

 

[Traveling teacher]

There are two common misconceptions people have about speaking in tongues:

1) Speaking in tongues in the Bible is speaking in the language of angels or some other language that no people on earth normally know, and .....
2) The same gift of speaking in tongues we read of in the Bible continues today.

The Bible reveals that both of these ideas are in false.

The Bible actually says that "speaking in tongues" has ceased.

In 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, Paul, in emphasizing the eternality of love points out that the gift of receiving prophecy from God, the gift of speaking in tongues, and the gift of receiving knowledge from God will end.

He says this will happen when that which is perfect is come. The Greek word translated "perfect" here is teleios. It means "complete." Something has reached its perfection when it is complete.

IMO the only thing that meets that explination is the Word of God and what Paul is referring to is the canonization of Scripture. Once God put all of the knowledge He wanted the church to have into the church through the gifts of knowledge, tongues, and prophecy—and all of this was recorded in Scripture—then He stopped giving those gifts. Tongues were only for the period of transition from the Old to the New Covenant, they were a witness against unbelievers, and were the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies foretelling the divine judgment against the Jews as He turned from them to the Gentiles.

Tongues, as well as the gifts of knowledge and prophecy, and physical healing have ceased.

Back to the original question or asumption.....
Read all of 1 corinthians 13:8-12
Specifically verse 12 Paul is talking about the ending of prophesies knowledge and tongues...
When we see Christ face to face
When the perfect comes ...verse 10
is Christ return...verse 12
Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus...revelation 19:10
All Paul is saying is that when we see Christ face to face we will obviously not need to speak in tongues or prophecy about His coming are explain knowledge of Him in part because The fullness of prophecy
The perfect Christ has returned....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not being presumptuous in saying Pentecostal interpreted tongues is false prophecy. It is the logical conclusion to make when most Pentecostals believe interpreted tongues = prophecy and practice it as such, yet theologically the doctrine that tongues is a message from God to the people is impossible to draw from scripture.



Got some scripture to back up that assertion about prophecy?

Yes.
"We have different gifts, according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith" (Romans 12:6).

I am not being disrespectful to you when I say that your experience is limited to the groups that you have had contact with. My experience is different and therefore, although I have seen my share of the "lunatic fringe", I have observed many genuine prophetic events.

Also, I was trained under good, solid mentors who were experienced in the prophet and could tell the genuine from the false and idiotic. For example: A guy with a "built-in amplifier" got up in a conference and gave a long loud prophecy to the group. After the guy had finished, the leader got up and said, "Well, we can safely ignore that one." Another fellow gave a "lunatic-fringe" prophecy, and the leader cried out, "That's not of God!" Then another guy got up to give a prophecy and started, "Yea...yea...yea..." and then sat down. I had a laugh over that one because I wondered if someone in the congregation had asked God a question which needed an answer yes or no! Hahahahahahahahar!

 

[Major1]

Back to the original question or asumption.....
Read all of 1 corinthians 13:8-12
Specifically verse 12 Paul is talking about the ending of prophesies knowledge and tongues...
When we see Christ face to face
When the perfect comes ...verse 10
is Christ return...verse 12
Prophecy is the testimony of Jesus...revelation 19:10
All Paul is saying is that when we see Christ face to face we will obviously not need to speak in tongues or prophecy about His coming are explain knowledge of Him in part because The fullness of prophecy
The perfect Christ has returned....

I hear you and understand what you are wishing the Scripture said.

It has been stated several times already that the original Greek does not allow the "Perfect" to be a person.

The Grammar is "neuter" toward the adjective and that mean the "Perfect" have to a THING and not a person.

 

[Major1]

Indeed, it an affront to the shed blood of Christ to say that Pentecostalism is the "full gospel" as it implies the gospel of Christ is somehow lacking without it.

That is exactly my point.

Take that a step further and the Bible says that "God is not a respecter of persons".

If therefore a denomination of believers has something that someone else does not have then that would make God a liar wouldn't it?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

That is exactly my point.

Take that a step further and the Bible says that "God is not a respecter of persons".

If therefore a denomination of believers has something that someone else does not have then that would make God a liar wouldn't it?

I agree (Ah! The Saints be praised...another miracle!).

Either everyone has it, or nobody has it.

The term "full gospel" claimed by people of particular denominations truly does suggest elitism and has the potential to cause further division which works against God's developmental plan for the Church - to bring it into total unity under Christ.

For me, the use of the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are there to strengthen and build up the Church so that it can preach the gospel more powerfully and effectively to those who need to hear it. I wouldn't be concerned if these denominations say, "We have the full toolkit for preaching the gospel." This doesn't suggest elitism; rather it is saying that they make better use of the resources that are available to all churches.

By the way, I have decided to cease using my cordless drill because it is a false drill because it is not listed in the Bible.

 

[Traveling teacher]

I hear you and understand what you are wishing the Scripture said.

It has been stated several times already that the original Greek does not allow the "Perfect" to be a person.

The Grammar is "neuter" toward the adjective and that mean the "Perfect" have to a THING and not a person.

Scripture explains scripture
You dont need to know Greek
As Jesus said the Holy Spirit will explain all things
As in verse 12 Paul explains what the perfect is
One interpretation for sure is that perfect has
Nothing whatsoever to do with canonization
Because it is not mentionef anywhere in that chapter

To deny the babtism of HS with pfophecy and speaking in tongues
You would have to deny these groups
Assembly of God
Pentecostals and charismatic throughout Africa..the majority of Christians in some areas of Africa
The chinese underground church
Many Jewish messianic believers
Most nondenominations in US
Charismatics in the Catholic church approved by the Pope
And the Azuzu street revival of 1906....

To be presise surely Jesus or the HS scripture would have clearly prophesied the sesation of these gifts....
Since It was prophesief that this fift would come on pentecost
Acts 1:8
Joel 2:30

I will say this that somehow these gifts were severely limited until 1900.....
Probably because of the transgretion of the Church......
Or the rejection of the Jews...antisemitism
This begin to be corrected in 1917
As england declared a Jewish state
God will only pour out His Spirit on a unified Church

 

[bbbbbbb]

To deny the babtism of HS with pfophecy and speaking in tongues
You would have to deny these groups
Assembly of God
Pentecostals and charismatic throughout Africa..the majority of Christians in some areas of Africa
The chinese underground church
Many Jewish messianic believers
Most nondenominations in US
Charismatics in the Catholic church approved by the Pope
And the Azuzu street revival of 1906....

To be presise surely Jesus or the HS scripture would have clearly prophesied the sesation of these gifts....
Since It was prophesief that this fift would come on pentecost
Acts 1:8
Joel 2:30

I will say this that somehow these gifts were severely limited until 1900.....
Probably because of the transgretion of the Church......
Or the rejection of the Jews...antisemitism
This begin to be corrected in 1917
As england declared a Jewish state
God will only pour out His Spirit on a unified Church

What do you know of the Chinese underground church? Have you been to China as I have, not once, but four times to teach the Bible in the underground church?

I can tell you categorically that the house churches in China are just as diverse as most Protestant churches here in the United States. To be sure, you will encounter some who have been taught Pentecostal doctrine and you will encounter many who have not. My observation is that without Pentecostal teachers coming from the United States, none of the Chinese house churches would be trying to imitate what they consider to be the standard American church practices.

 

[Biblicist]

I am always amused when I see well meaning Christians use the term......"Full Gospel". It implies that you/they have something that everyone else does not have.

As both the various Pentecostal denominations and the Charismatic movement would agree that the cessationist ethos is at least "missing out on few aspects of the Gospel" and that it has been a term that has been well entrenched particularly within the Pentecostal movement from its very beginnings, along with the descriptor, Continuism which is in contrast to that of cessationism then it is a term that is more than valid.

How can anyone be upset with the term Full Gospel when the same people are quite content to use the term cessationism which speaks of something that has either ceased or been lost?

 

[Biblicist]

Indeed, it an affront to the shed blood of Christ to say that Pentecostalism is the "full gospel" as it implies the gospel of Christ is somehow lacking without it.

Not at all, we're simply stating that the cessationist understanding of the Gospel is lacking; thus the terms Continuism where cessationism has certain aspects of the Holy Spirit's ministry ceasing.