Is something really free if you attach a bunch conditions and demands to it?

[archer75]

I am perfectly fine with there being gifts that are only given to people who are Christ's followers. I would be surprised if there weren't. But is "salvation from the fate of eternal torture" a free gift?

Not all Christians think this way. I see what you mean, though. I've had good luck recently looking into Orthodox conceptions of salvation and...non-salvation. Ask on The Ancient Way if you want to hear the EO opinion or Voice in the Desert if you want to hear OO opinions...

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

I disagree. You say Christians are not concerned with old removed law in which you believe we are talking about yet many Christians behave like Old Covenant "believers". There is way too much, almost 100%, discussion of doctrine and/or biblical exegesis that goes on all the time. But that has little to do with true Christianity. We are supposed to live out our faith for the benefit of others, yet many constantly measure themselves to see if they are adhering to doctrine and/or behavior of self.

If we are not filled up with the love of God then we constantly work on self-improvement which is not at all what God wants. If we are filled up with God's love then we can devote our lives to serving others.

So many Christians are worried that they might fall under the power of sin so they constantly fight against it. That is totally self-centered. Paul said that he was dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus, and I agree with him 110%. We are God's children, 100% loved by him regardless of our weaknesses.

I am a parent. When my children misbehave I correct them and when they do the right thing I praise them. This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I love them or not. I don't expect them to be perfect, but they are forever part of my family; I would never reject them. I expect them to grow up to be good citizens, to love and serve others. It's the same as God's relationship with us, his children in Christ. He doesn't expect us to be perfect and understands that we have weaknesses, but his love and approval are always there. It doesn't matter if we sin on occasion as Christ has already taken the punishment for our sins. We are forever God's adopted children. The only way that can ever change is if we voluntarily choose not to be a part of God's family.

Christians would be much better off if they realized that constantly trying to do better and/or do what's right is futile; God loves us and forgives our weaknesses. We are supposed to be "a light on a hill" to the world. If we have that light, then we shouldn't hide it under our (self-centered) bed by focusing on trying to be perfect, but instead reflect the glory of God.

Friend you have either not understood what I wrote or turned it around.

I said that you keep replying as if myself and others are pushing the old law and I said no. I talked about kingdom laws which are as the commands He has given us in His Word and the way things are to be done according to His word.

God Loves us very much but when we don't walk according to the way He has told us then He is Not Pleased.

You say God does not want us working on self improvement. That is so not right.

We are to do this daily and we do this through His written word.

You speak as if All is good no matter what and God accepts us no matter what we do.
Jesus Did not preach love and acceptance but Repentance and Kingdom.

You said....
(So many Christians are worried that they might fall under the power of sin so they constantly fight against it. That is totally self-centered. Paul said that he was dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus, and I agree with him 110%. We are God's children, 100% loved by him regardless of our weaknesses)

Ok again Let's Allow Scripture to speak for itself. ....
Romans 6:11-14
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12....Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13.....Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14.....For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So you say all these Christians are wrong because they work to not sin because Paul said we are dead to sin.....

Scripture does not agree with you.
Scripture tells us we are to not Let

Blessings
FCJ

 

[pescador]

Friend you have either not understood what I wrote or turned it around.

I said that you keep replying as if myself and others are pushing the old law and I said no. I talked about kingdom laws which are as the commands He has given us in His Word and the way things are to be done according to His word.

God Loves us very much but when we don't walk according to the way He has told us then He is Not Pleased.

You say God does not want us working on self improvement. That is so not right.

We are to do this daily and we do this through His written word.

You speak as if All is good no matter what and God accepts us no matter what we do.
Jesus Did not preach love and acceptance but Repentance and Kingdom.

You said....
(So many Christians are worried that they might fall under the power of sin so they constantly fight against it. That is totally self-centered. Paul said that he was dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus, and I agree with him 110%. We are God's children, 100% loved by him regardless of our weaknesses)

Ok again Let's Allow Scripture to speak for itself. ....
Romans 6:11-14
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12....Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13.....Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14.....For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So you say all these Christians are wrong because they work to not sin because Paul said we are dead to sin.....

Scripture does not agree with you.
Scripture tells us we are to not Let

Blessings
FCJ

Okay, let's look at what Paul wrote in his letter to the Romans (emphases mine)...

Chapter 6, verses 1-7...

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

Of course there is much more that Paul says in his letter and I don't like taking things out of context, but this passage clearly explains the concept of being born again to a new life that is free from sin. As I said earlier, if people want to continually struggle with the power of sin then they are not living a resurrected life. Jesus, who was tempted in every way, no longer struggles with sin and neither should those of us who are in him.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Of course there is much more that Paul says in his letter and I don't like taking things out of context, but this passage clearly explains the concept of being born again to a new life that is free from sin. As I said earlier, if people want to continually struggle with the power of sin then they are not living a resurrected life. Jesus, who was tempted in every way, no longer struggles with sin and neither should those of us who are in him.

If you are referring to a life that is free from sin as in since you are born again you never have to be concerned with sin then that is in error.

What makes this life free from sin?
If again you believe that Christ in you means you never have to deal with sin again, we'll that would be in error.

Am I missing what you mean here?
Blessings
FCJ

 

[pescador]

I don't think so. If you have been born again then sin has no power over you. You can live totally by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not dwell on sin at all. If you inadvertently sin then it is of no importance to God; we're not perfect.

If you choose to ignore the Holy Spirit and prefer sin that is an entirely different matter. People have a choice, as did Adam, but there are consequences. No Christian needs to worry about sinning if they follow the Holy Spirit.

Too many Christian try to follow "the rules", which is in effect no different than being under the Old Covenant. "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free."

 

[pescador]

Here is an example that I gave in another discussion...

Suppose you're driving on a highway. If you obey the posted speed limit then you have no fear of being stopped. This is akin to following the Holy Spirit. If you exceed the speed limit by accident and quickly realize it, then you should slow down until you're driving under the speed limit again. This is an honest mistake, is not deliberate, and is not held against you.

On the other hand, if you deliberately exceed the speed limit, then you are willfully violating the law, constantly checking your rear view mirror and your surroundings, hoping that you won't get arrested and fined. That is an example of being governed by sin, even if you don't get caught. You're not submitting to authority but to sin.

Personally I find driving at or below the speed limit very pleasant. For me there is no need to speed.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

you can live totally by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and not dwell on sin at all. If you inadvertently sin then it is of no importance to God; we're not perfect.

See that's the problem right there.
It is vitally important to both us and God.
1John1:9 and Mark 11:25
Unforgiven or unrepentant sins work against you. It hinders your prayer life and one is not walking in Love if they are holding unforgiveness and thus hinders your faith.

Unrepentant sins give our enemy the devil an open door.
Just because Jesus paid the price for our sins does not say once forgiven always forgiven. The devil wants you to believe like that.

Yes His Blood covers All Sin, past present and future.......if you ask me to forgive you because you stole my car and I said I forgive you and then down the road do it again.......I will need to forgive you again.

You say we'll I repented the last time I stole his car so why do I have to do that again?
Because you just came guilty again of taking my car without my permission.

satin is the accuser of the brethren
What would he have to accuse you of if you never have to deal with sin again?
Blessings
FCJ

 

[pescador]

It seems like we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't focus on sin, the devil, etc. I focus on God's love, Jesus' sacrifice, and the guidance and joy of Holy Spirit. I am not perfect (yet) so I (unintentionally) sin every now and then, but it's no big deal.

I much prefer to live in love and joy instead of fear and shame.

Regarding the two verses you cited, both are taken out of context with no regard to whom they were spoken/written. The first part of 1 John was written to unbelievers, not to Christians. 1 John1:5 says, "We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ." You don't write this to fellow believers, since they already have fellowship with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

Likewise Mark was reporting what Jesus said to his disciples who were not yet Christians. It was written before the crucifixion! After the crucifixion all sins have been forgiven.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Likewise Mark was reporting what Jesus said to his disciples who were not yet Christians. It was written before the crucifixion! After the crucifixion all sins have been forgiven.

Actually all sins have provision to be forgiven through the blood of Christ but don't be deceived into thinking they are automatically just forgiven. That's bad doctrine.

If this was the case no one would ever need to be forgiven and no one would need to repent and everyone could do as we please because we are forgiven and going to live in Heaven. That's not true.

I don't focus on sin, the devil, etc. I focus on God's love, Jesus' sacrifice, and the guidance and joy of Holy Spirit. I

Not saying focusing on sin or the devil.
Let me ask you this, how do you know if what your thinking is influenced by God or the devil?
Also what Is sin to you?

I am not perfect (yet) so I (unintentionally) sin every now and then, but it's no big deal.

Says who?

Regarding the two verses you cited, both are taken out of context with no regard to whom they were spoken/written. The first part of 1 John was written to unbelievers, not to Christians. 1 John1:5 says, "We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ." You don't write this to fellow believers, since they already have fellowship with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

1John1:9 is in context and is written to believers but you would not know this because to you sin is no big deal and it's already been dealt with.

Father I lift up @pescador to you and I ask that you would open their eyes unto your truth and deepen their understanding of your most Holy Word. I thank you for the time to write with them and I thank you that it has Always been peaceful. We give you all glory and honor and thanks and Praise your most Holy name. In Jesus name we pray. Amen

Not sure what area you are in but have the most peaceful and joyful weekend
Blessings
FCJ

 

[pescador]

Actually all sins have provision to be forgiven through the blood of Christ but don't be deceived into thinking they are automatically just forgiven. That's bad doctrine.

If this was the case no one would ever need to be forgiven and no one would need to repent and everyone could do as we please because we are forgiven and going to live in Heaven. That's not true.



Not saying focusing on sin or the devil.
Let me ask you this, how do you know if what your thinking is influenced by God or the devil?
Also what Is sin to you?


Says who?



1John1:9 is in context and is written to believers but you would not know this because to you sin is no big deal and it's already been dealt with.

Father I lift up @pescador to you and I ask that you would open their eyes unto your truth and deepen their understanding of your most Holy Word. I thank you for the time to write with them and I thank you that it has Always been peaceful. We give you all glory and honor and thanks and Praise your most Holy name. In Jesus name we pray. Amen

Not sure what area you are in but have the most peaceful and joyful weekend
Blessings
FCJ

1) ALL sins are forgiven through the cross. That is pure biblical doctrine. If that's not the case then something more needs to be done beyond Jesus' sacrifice. Can you give me some idea which sins aren't atoned for by Jesus' death on the cross?

2) I clearly know whether my thoughts are influenced by God or the devil. God is love and the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. If my thoughts aren't in agreement with these qualities then they're not from God. Unlike many others, I pay no attention to the devil. Why should I?

Sin to me is thought or behavior that is contrary to the will of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. It can be done intentionally or unintentionally. If you sin intentionally either you haven't received the Holy Spirit or you're acting contrary to the Lord. Again, if you sin unintentionally it's no big deal, as we aren't perfect and are forgiven in advance.

3) You say "1John1:9 is in context and is written to believers but you would not know this because to you sin is no big deal and it's already been dealt with." This is a) wrong and b) insulting. I know a LOT about the Bible and always make sure that I understand to whom the "books" were written, the cultural context, and the reason they were created. If you think that one single verse, taken completely out of context, written to unbelievers, establishes some universal doctrine, you are in serious error. Personally I don't cherry-pick verses to reinforce my own predetermined doctrine. Nobody else should either.

Your prayer is too patronizing for me to receive it. Did you cut-and-paste my forum handle into some canned prayer? I'm one person, so why are you asking in archaic English to "open their eyes unto your truth and deepen their understanding of your most Holy Word. I thank you for the time to write with them..." The implication is that somehow God will change my thinking to agree with your personal interpretation of the truth and what you personally think the Bible says. That will not happen.

Because of this attitude I'm not interested in discussing this subject with you any further.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

sins are forgiven through the cross. That is pure biblical doctrine. If that's not the case then something more needs to be done beyond Jesus' sacrifice. Can you give me some idea which sins aren't atoned for by Jesus' death on the cross?

All Sin has been paid for by the Blood of Christ. If not all sin then what you did tonight would not be covered by His blood on the cross then.
But you STILL need to ask. It's not a free pass so one can be not responsible for their actions.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to answer your question.

2) I clearly know whether my thoughts are influenced by God or the devil. God is love and the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. If my thoughts aren't in agreement with these qualities then they're not from God. Unlike many others, I pay no attention to the devil. Why should I?

See that's a deception that our enemies thoughts are easy to catch. he is a master at deception and will use the word and good things which come with feelings and emotions.

You said why should I pay attention to the devil.......Because Scripture Tells You Too.

Your prayer is too patronizing for me to receive it. Did you cut-and-paste my forum handle into some canned prayer? I'm one person, so why are you asking in archaic English to "open their eyes unto your truth and deepen their understanding of your most Holy Word. I thank you for the time to write with them..." The implication is that somehow God will change my thinking to agree with your personal interpretation of the truth and what you personally think the Bible says. That will not happen.

Because of this attitude I'm not interested in discussing this subject with you any further.

Wow I see . So I pray and ask the Father to give you deeper understanding and you turn it into an insult.

You feel your always right so you turn things into an insult. Interesting.

See scripture never says test the doctrine of a man but the Spirit.
What is your attitude show?
Be blessed

You say "1John1:9 is in context and is written to believers but you would not know this because to you sin is no big deal and it's already been dealt with." This is a) wrong and b) insulting.

Read back and see how many times you told me that sin is no big deal and you don't have to worry about sin and so on. Now you say it's an insult because I said you would not know this because to you sin is no big deal.

How do you turn that into an insult?
Enjoy your walk
Blessings

 

[pescador]

First of all, biblically your prayer will not be answered. Have you ever read this in Matthew's gospel..?

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

You lifted a canned prayer to a group in archaic English, dropped my forum handle in it, then posted it on a public forum. As it says above, hypocrites do that, not those whose prayer is sincere. According to the Bible your prayer will not be answered.

You said, "See that's a deception that our enemies thoughts are easy to catch. he is a master at deception and will use the word and good things which come with feelings and emotions." If you're fixated on the devil then you're not focused on God. That is exactly what the devil wants! If you're focused on sin and Satan, and spend your time trying to correct others I think you should examine your faith.

As for me I have peace with God through Jesus Christ and you will never be able to alter that. I will pray for you (in secret) that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

First of all, biblically your prayer will not be answered. Have you ever read this in Matthew's gospel..?

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

You lifted a canned prayer to a group in archaic English, dropped my forum handle in it, then posted it on a public forum. As it says above, hypocrites do that, not those whose prayer is sincere. According to the Bible your prayer will not be answered.

You said, "See that's a deception that our enemies thoughts are easy to catch. he is a master at deception and will use the word and good things which come with feelings and emotions." If you're fixated on the devil then you're not focused on God. That is exactly what the devil wants! If you're focused on sin and Satan, and spend your time trying to correct others I think you should examine your faith.

As for me I have peace with God through Jesus Christ and you will never be able to alter that. I will pray for you (in secret) that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened.

I forgive you and hold no aught against you.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Which of these best describes your attitude?

God Bless
FCJ

 

[pescador]

I forgive you and hold no aught against you.
Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Which of these best describes your attitude?

God Bless
FCJ

One of the troubles of using an archaic bible is that it's divided into verses (which were not in the original). The entire sentence (KJV) reads "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." It's immediately followed by "And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."

As we well know, "crucified" means absolutely put to death. So when Paul writes "have crucified the flesh" it means that the flesh no longer lives, and the "affections and lusts" have died with it. If you think that "the flesh" still lives and that we must continually struggle against sin you are missing the basis of Christianity.

You have provoked me by personally criticizing me and trying to correct my attitude toward sin. I agree with what is clearly written in the Bible. You disagree with it. If you read the underlined sentence from Paul's letter you will see that there is no need to discuss the subject any further.

 

[hedrick]

1) ALL sins are forgiven through the cross. That is pure biblical doctrine. If that's not the case then something more needs to be done beyond Jesus' sacrifice. Can you give me some idea which sins aren't atoned for by Jesus' death on the cross?

Often when people say that all sins are atoned for, they mean that while Christ's death is sufficient for everything, it only benefits people who have faith in Christ. Is that what you mean? If not, it would look like universalism (everyone is saved). That's a respectable viewpoint, particularly among liberal Christians, but it's not clear whether that's what you mean.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

You have provoked me by personally criticizing me and trying to correct my attitude toward sin. I agree with what is clearly written in the Bible. You disagree with it. If you read the underlined sentence from Paul's letter you will see that there is no need to discuss the subject any further.

I agree there is no use in talking with you.

You say I provoked you? That's too funny because it's your FLESH that was provoked.

you also said.....personally criticizing me and trying to correct my attitude toward sin.

Actually let the truth be known.
I did nothing but Try to get you to see what I was saying from the first reply.

WHY?
Was it to convince you or change you? NO!!
BUT it simply was an attempt to get you to understand what I was saying.

WHY?
Because you from day one CONTINUALLY Twisted, Perverted, changed and Insisted I was saying things I was not.

So God Bless
FCJ

 

[pescador]

Often when people say that all sins are atoned for, they mean that while Christ's death is sufficient for everything, it only benefits people who have faith in Christ. Is that what you mean? If not, it would look like universalism (everyone is saved). That's a respectable viewpoint, particularly among liberal Christians, but it's not clear whether that's what you mean.

I mean the former. Christ's death did away with the punishment for all sin for everyone, but it only benefits people who have faith in Christ. I remember years ago that longer after WWII ended there were still some Japanese who hid in the mountains for years because they didn't know the war was over. There was peace for everyone except those who didn't know about it.

Everyone is innocent but each person must accept that s/he is free because of Christ's sacrifice. If s/he doesn't accept it (or worse rejects it) then s/he is guilty and must personally accept the punishment.

 

[pescador]

I agree there is no use in talking with you.

You say I provoked you? That's too funny because it's your FLESH that was provoked.

you also said.....personally criticizing me and trying to correct my attitude toward sin.

Actually let the truth be known.
I did nothing but Try to get you to see what I was saying from the first reply.

WHY?
Was it to convince you or change you? NO!!
BUT it simply was an attempt to get you to understand what I was saying.

WHY?
Because you from day one CONTINUALLY Twisted, Perverted, changed and Insisted I was saying things I was not.

So God Bless
FCJ

Then we agree. No more discussion. I will live in peace with God and you will struggle with sin and Satan. End of story.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Then we agree. No more discussion. I will live in peace with God and you will struggle with sin and Satan. End of story.

Agreed and Amen but I don't struggle with sin and I live in peace and Joy of the Lord.
Have a Great Week
Blessings
FCJ

 

[Aseyesee]

Is something really free if you attach a bunch conditions and demands to it?

Say if i walk up to you and said, I am going to give you ten dollars for free but only if you wash my car. I ask why do some Christians keep talking about "Christ's free gift of salvation"? It doesn't seem all that free to me when they attach a bunch conditions and demands to it.

It is understandable to say "don't kill people" or "love god and each other" , But some of the other stuff is a bit much.

A gift is free, but a relationship will cost you everything.