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Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?


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concretecamper

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And neither are you. We're both sinful human beings and other human beings just like us created traditions. You want to see their creations a equal to scripture go ahead. Have at it.
I follow the Church, just as scripture and Tradition tells us
I'm fallible just the the sinners who created traditions.
You are fallible, which is why your views are being questioned. Jesus said to the Apostles, he that hears you, hears Me, he that rejects you rejects Me and the One who sent Me. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church, not you or your interpretations.
 
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fhansen

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And neither are you. We're both sinful human beings and other human beings just like us created traditions. You want to see their creations a equal to scripture go ahead. Have at it.
Sinful human beings like us received unwritten teachings/traditions as the Bible attests and later put some of that down on parchment, which became the written portion of the word. The church received and preached the gospel decades before any of the new testament was written.

Then sinful humans must interpret that word and they often disagree with each other over its meaning. But we must believe that God can communicate His truths to us correctly. And the ancient churches have the best odds of knowing, along with the ECFs. Study history and you'll better understand the gospel.
 
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fhansen

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Not what I said. I never place my opinions on the same level as scripture. I'm fallible just the the sinners who created traditions.
If you're fallible then you're saying that your understanding of scripture is unreliable? I mean, if you disagree with someone on the meaning of scripture do you just assume that you're quite possibly or even probably wrong?

Tradition is nothing more or less than knowledge: of the received truths of the faith, whether or not they were also written.
 
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Fervent

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I'd attack the first one, because it seems to misrepresent what sola scriptura actually means in orthodox protestant tradition. Sola scriptura is simply the claim that Scripture is the final authority, and is the judge of any tradition. Sola scriptura doesn't require that all doctrine be derivable from Scripture, merely that a legitimate doctrine cannot contradict Scripture. What it boils down to is a declaration that every question must ultimately rely on a single authority, and as far as we must decide between Scripture and ecclesial bodies we must depend on Scripture.
 
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chevyontheriver

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And neither are you. We're both sinful human beings and other human beings just like us created traditions. You want to see their creations a equal to scripture go ahead. Have at it.
I noticed you say you are SDA. And somehow you don't think the writings of Ellen Gould White are inspired? Catholics treat the Fathers and the Councils and the popes as far less inspired than the SDA treats Ellen Gould White.

Unless you care to state that the writings of Ellen Gould White are NOT inspired. Go ahead.
 
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chevyontheriver

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There are a bevy of definitions of Sola Scriptura, and that makes this kind of discussion a bit maddening. Your apparent definition is actually close to that of 'Dei Verbum' from Vatican II in that it puts Scripture as primary. Others do think that if it's not explicit in Scripture it is no doctrine. Or that if it;s not explicitly forbidden in Scripture then it's allowed, or some other permutation. The problem is the dogma itself isn't in Scripture so it's whatever somebody thinks it is. I wish you guys, the guys who claim Sola Scriptura, could all agree and then get back to us. It would be so much easier.
 
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Men. I have used it after I got married as I grew up in a very dysfunctional family and was not sure if I could be fair to my step kids.
So you admit to obeying the traditions of men rather than God. Contraception makes the law of God of no effect to you. If you don’t want children, don’t have sexual intercourse.

The world suffers from lack of catechesis on what marriage actually is. In God’s kingdom, there are no step children unless there has been a death of one of the spouses, as there is no divorce and remarriage. That too makes a mockery of the law of God. You sure you follow Jesus?

Seems like you are doing what ever you want and slapping Jesus name on it. Seems too close to Alister Crowley rather than Jesus.

Jesus says if you love me keep my commandments. Yours appears to be Do what thou wilt in the name of Jesus shall be the whole of the law. Is that what you are doing?

Your argument is that since dysfunctional families exist, contraception is justified. You change God’s law to no effect, rather than reprove the evil people breaking God’s law. That is being ruled by the traditions of men and makes it no different than the heathen. The salt has lost its savor. It can only be restored by repentance
 
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Fervent

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It seems to me the best way to understand what it is is how it was used by those who are most closely associated with it. Certainly some misunderstand it to require Scriptural derivation, but that's not how Jan Hus and the proto-reformers, and the reformers who followed, used the term. What they used it for was to challenge scholastic theology that was more rooted in medeival culture than in the historic tradition. The reformers didn't see Scripture as exhaustive, in fact they relied heavily on Augustine for their doctrine. And sola scriptura isn't really a dogma, as it's not meant to be taken axiomatically but by recognizing that either we rely on what has been authenticated as codified Apostolic tradition or we subject ourselves to authorities of dubious character. There has always been a recognition of authorities alongside Scripure.

I will say, I probably should have made clear I don't fully agree with sola scriptura, and instead take a view similar to the orthodox of scripture in tradition. It's simply that the argument is based on what seems to be a mischaracterization of the historic doctrine rather than how it was used in church history.
 
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Gary K

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Yes, I do believe Ellen White is inspired. She passes all the Biblical tests of a prophet.

She would go into vision and speak for an hour or two and never breath. She was a small frail woman and she once time held a large family Bible over her head for more than an hour while turning the pages and pointing to scripture there was no way she could see. She once went into a half hour long vision in church and she was laid on her back by invisible beings. She demonstrated supernatural strength during that vision as two large men could not hold her arms still while in vision and this was all done while not breathing.

Jesus tells us that by their fruits ye shall know them. The fruits of her life were very Christ like as she helped a lot of people pay their bills, took in abused kids, paid for their entire education, and let them live with her for years. She also revealed people's secret sins and convinced them to change their behavior. She condemned spousal and child abuse that was unknown outside of the family. She did not condemn those who disagreed with her but called them Christian brothers and sisters.
 
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Gary K

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You jump to some real conclusions. My wife's ex husband cheated on her. And he left her, She had solid Biblical ground for her divorce.

And your argument is, who cares about kids having their lives destroyed through abuse. I know very well how destructive it is as I grew up abused, physically. emotionally, and sexually. The emotional pain was so bad by the time I graduated from high school I deliberately started using drugs. It was my method of committing suicide as I knew how destructive they are but tried to burn myself out to the point I couldn't remember the abuse. I lost my cookies on a 4 way hit of windowpane and watched my mind fly out the window on night. I was left with deep anxiety for decades from that. I didn't like myself because my family had convinced me I was worthless so there was no effort made to get help. I asked the devil one night to solve a personal issue for me and he did. He came back after God inserted Himself in my life and attempted to possess me.

Here's the story. I wrote this 20+ years ago.

 
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chevyontheriver

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Yes, I do believe Ellen White is inspired. She passes all the Biblical tests of a prophet.
So you don't like Tradition but you are willing to follow the traditions of this woman. You even call her inspired. How's that for Sola Scriptura? OT, NT, White's Testament? I just wanted to confirm that. Thanks for the confirmation.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Good description of a version of Sola Scriptura that makes a little more sense. So often all of this stuff is a caricature. For example, the Catholic view is often said by Protestants to be 'Tradition Alone'.
I hear you. I point people to Dei Verbum from Vatican II. I doubt more than a tiny percentage of people I point to it ever read it, but it is a surprisingly good statement.
 
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Fervent

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Good description of a version of Sola Scriptura that makes a little more sense. So often all of this stuff is a caricature. For example, the Catholic view is often said by Protestants to be 'Tradition Alone'.
Yeah, unfortunately a lot of the nuances get lost in the spirit of conflict. Realistically, the majority of Christian history is just sparring at the margins rather than major discrepancies. Things get blown out of proportion because of politics, which is not to say there aren't real differences just that actually engaging with the original disputers usually reveals the gaps were much smaller and grew over time. I pray for the day that Christendom is able to heal the schisms, but I fear the power issues will prevent that from happening.
I hear you. I point people to Dei Verbum from Vatican II. I doubt more than a tiny percentage of people I point to it ever read it, but it is a surprisingly good statement.
My main objection to Dei Verbum is the restriction to bishops, because many of the greatest luminaries were never bishops. I don't know of a clear statement, but I think having an official magisterium and sola scriptura are in error to some degree. There is no sharp divide between Scripture and tradition for me, but the lineage of Christian tradition has not been neatly conveyed among the episcopate. Interpretation takes a community disposed to learning.
 
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Gary K

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So you don't like Tradition but you are willing to follow the traditions of this woman. You even call her inspired. How's that for Sola Scriptura? OT, NT, White's Testament? I just wanted to confirm that. Thanks for the confirmation.
Whatever. You ignore everything I say and put me down for saying it. Have at it. Your opinion doesn't matter to me any more than mine matters to you.
 
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zippy2006

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The same question arises, just in a different key. Given that your new definition of Sola Scriptura does not come from Scripture, from where does it derive its authority? Sola Scriptura, even on your definition, is a tradition not found in the Bible.

And sola scriptura isn't really a dogma, as it's not meant to be taken axiomatically but by recognizing that either we rely on what has been authenticated as codified Apostolic tradition or we subject ourselves to authorities of dubious character.
The difficulty is that if you go back into history this neat separation between Scripture and Tradition doesn't actually exist. Scripture itself grew out of a tradition, and that tradition possesses divine authority. It is from that authority that Scripture comes. The Apostolic teaching was interpretive and authoritative, e.g. Acts 15:28..., and it generated the New Testament Scriptures. The Protestant claim is that, at some arbitrary point in history, this Apostolic authority vanished from the face of the earth.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:

I think the actual text says that when they heard someone of a different denomination preaching a Christian doctrine -- they were able to read their Bible for themselves to "SEE IF" those things were SO - rather than blindly listening to their own magisterium's traditions and teachings and condemning Paul's teaching just as the magisterium for their Synagogue had dictated.

Let's see if the Bible affirms this obvious detail.

Acts 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks

so then ... obvious for all to see that these were NOT Christians testing out their OWN Christian leadership - rather they were NON-Christians choosing to TEST the doctrine they had just heard in their Synagogue - against the Bible "alone" -- to "SEE IF" those things were so.

Yes Bob, you are right to believe scripture rather than men
Which is what the Bereans did in Acts 17:11 to the point of flat out rejecting the teaching/tradition of their magisterium on that very same topic of whether to accept or reject Paul's doctrine
, but do you really understand the story?
it appears so.
Paul was an Apostle, who had direct contact with Christ and was sent to preach the Gospel by Jesus Himself.
Not a background context that the Bereans had since they did not accept Jesus "as the Christ" prior to hearing Paul speak and then testing out his teaching against scripture to 'see if those things were so'.


The Bereans warned to test wether He was from God
The text says they wanted to test Paul's claims his teaching etc to see if "Those things were so" and the text says that they used scripture alone to do it - and of course by Acts 17 we already have the record in scripture that the magesterium of Jewish believers had already condemned both the the teaching that Jesus was the Christ, and the teaching of Paul and the teaching of Jesus.
, so they searched the scriptures to verify his teaching.
Indeed they searched the scriptures to verify Paul's teaching -- to "see IF" those things "were so"
They did not say, oh we understand now, we will make our own Berean sect
Nor did they say "we are all Christians and it is nice to finally have a Christian speak in our Synagogue".

They were Jews and gentiles worshiping as per the Jewish system of worship in the Synagogue at Berea.
If you want to be like the Bereans then you need to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church
The Bereans did not have anything remotely like that as a text to read. They had what we call the Old Testament scriptures and they had a pile of traditions/teachings of the Jews. Nothing else.
and study the whole thing to see what it says is scriptural
I have "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese and I have the Catholic Catechism online.

I have gone to your source to read what it teaches.

So in that regard I am taking the direct source and comparing it to scripture to "See if those things are so".

And I agree with you that this is the process one needs to use when applying that same sort of "sola scriptura" test to a subject such as the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Reading the Bible and interpreting it on your own is not following the Apostolic faith
The Bereans listened to Paul without then asking some other Jewish believer in the Synagogue to first re-imagine Paul's statement.. They took what Paul said and compared it against scripture.
It is merely you trying to convince others of your way of thinking.
In this case - it is me showing what the Bible says in Acts 17:11 - and everyone being able to read it for themselves.
By saying that your thoughts on scripture are always correct
I don't ever make the case "accept my view rather than scripture -- don't read the scripture for yourself to see if you find a sola scriptura test in Acts 17:11." I never argue for anything remotely along those lines.

I am the one that keeps quoting the Acts 17:11 text - for all to read for themselves. I leave it to others to -- not quote it, then insist their own tradition should be consulted rather than everyone just reading the text for themselves to "see IF those things are so".

I guess we can all see that detail clearly.
 
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BobRyan

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Agreed. "to see IF those things are so" -- to see IF scripture supports a view in the way that is claimed by someone's doctrine or tradition.

Mark 7:7-13 is a great example of Christ applying that very method to find that a certain tradition - failed the test.



in fact that method of testing is exactly what we see in scripture in Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:7-13
 
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BobRyan

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That Bible text is not that confusing if you are willing to quote it and note the details.

I don't mind that some folks choose not to read or quote Acts 17:10-11 but why assume that the rest of us would not do it??
 
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Fervent

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You seem to be making a category mistake, because sola scriptura is not an authoritative dogma. It's simply the recognition of the supremacy of the written tradition and its function in determining the authenticity of purported holy tradition. So it's not something that needs to derive authority from anywhere.
The protestant claim isn't that the authority vanished, but that the authority is vested in its antiquity and the oral tradition degraded over time as oral traditions are prone to. Things were added and removed from the tradition to suit the politics of the day, but we have a record of the earliest tradition in the Scriptures that plays a normative role over the innovations of a magesterium that has asserted its own authority in an illegitimate fashion. So while I agree that there is no way to neatly separate tradition and Scripture and Scripture must be read in light of the surrounding tradition, the oral tradition must be judged by the authentic writings of the apostle's rather than be held up on the authority of institutions.
 
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