Is social conservatism dead?

[Chazemataz]

I was reading the other thread about voting for laws against homosexuality and it brought up some interesting points.
What, do you think, will be the fate of social conservatism in America? obviously, liberalism has won out in areas like Britain and Canada, but the last vestiges of the movement seem to have a stronghold in the US.

Since I am a younger person myself, I obviously have a lot of interaction with other people my age. I wouldn't say that fiscal conservatism is dying out. I would say, however, that social conservatism is what is on the decline. If you were to ask the average teen between the ages of 16 and 21 their opinions on issues of today, you would find that they almost always take a much more liberal stance on things. If there is one thing we are good at, it is accepting other people of different nationalities, origins, backgrounds, ect. This was sorely lacking in previous generations. The 60's were an obvious exception, simply because that era paved the way for a sort of flushing out of old ideals that were held in the rigid societies of the 50's and below.
It would seem that a reason for this, be it coinicidental or not, is the progression of modern technology and information. People simply are much better connected and more in-tune with each other than they were, say, 40 or 50 years ago. Through things like TV and the Internet, we are exposed to different people, cultures, and viewpoints. The media has also contributed to the "numbing" or American culture that has helped to make certain people less shocked by, say, the idea of two people having premarital sex or two people of the same sex kissing. That's not to say that people didn't do this before. It was just much more private.

It would seem that the Right in America reached its peak a few years ago with Bush, and after he flubbed everything up it just made a nail in the coffin of the Right. The average attitude of a younger American when asked about the Republican party is this:
"Oh, they're all a bunch of snobby old rich white guys that don't care about anyone else."

Part of the reason for this attitude in newer generations, I think, is the fact that before the dawn of modern technology and communication the "rich old white guys" were the most knowledgable ones out there simply because they were around longer and stereotypically in control. However, now with the readily available technology and information, younger people see no need for this stereotypical "Rich Old White Guy In Control". If you've ever seen Dead Poets Society (awesome movie by the way), I mean people like the principal and the father of Neal Perry.

I'm not saying these are nessesarily bad people. I have a lot of respect for people like my father and grandfather, who were both strict but helped shape me into the young man I am today. I am just saying that they have stricter and more traditional ways that younger people now have less respect for.

So, my point is this: soceity is gradually getting more and more liberal. Will the younger generations soon find no more need for the "old ways" of social conservatism?

 

[BobW188]

Actually, I think a true social conservative might be among the first to say that we do not need and should not have laws regulating private, consensual behavior without a showing of compelling social need or of demonstrable harm to others. But experience suggests to me that, far from the trend continuing, it will swing back. Social and legal mores seem to move like a pendulum - from one extreme to the other, without even a pause at the center.

Beware any demise of the Republican party, though. Johnson won a record popular and electoral majority over Goldwater in 1964; and 16 years later we had Reagan. Far from '64 being the death of a conservative GOP, it was the rebirth.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Can I just say, liberalism has not 'taken over' Britain. I wish it had.

Anyway, speaking as someone who is very conservative for my age, it's been said that the younger generation are somehow different since we've had writing (and I'm sure before). Social conservatism is surely inherent to all of us, in the widest sense. In the narrow sense of 'conservatism' in the US, it needs to die out because it's probably the most morally sickening ideology that exists in developed countries.

 

[Verv]

Social conservatism may have lost this war, but there is going to be an offensive and a backlash.

History is generally cyclical, and the circles it makes keep getting tighter as information technology and travel times decrease dramatically.

We will rebound within a few generations -- humans are never happy with what they are given.

Every generation rails against what they are told.

One of the errors of most Western thinkers, including Christians, is the belief that humanity progresses to a point; in no way do we progress in any sense other than technologically. There will be no cultural dominance that will last for a thousand years.

The new tactic that I am embracing with others of my movement that generally support a socially conservativism is a 'scorched earth' policy.

Righ tnow, in south Korea, I am uniting the hardcore underground Left who has a concept of real values with my own position to focus on cultural criticisms; I support abandoning modern liberalism in favor of an almost tribalistic, barbaric approach to morality and embracing political libertarianism.

The more we get people to clean their brains of the filth they began spouting in the 1960s the easier it is to win people to a cause of conservatism.

since we have been sharing power in a losing battle, and have lost more or less, i tis now time to abandon the notion of sharing power and embrace the notion of undermining all forms of power.

The new conservative movement will look identical to what the Futurists and Fascists were doing in the early 20th century (though I am no fascist).

It is very easy to do this and the momentum will be there.

If you are in your late teens or twenties, your kids will probably one day read something that me or my associates are writing today, and they will probably listen to music that me and my associates are making today.

And they will probably be saying things like:

"Why do you believe in peace when there is evil in the world?"

"Why do you believe in giving your money to the government to fix your problems?"

"Why do you think men should suppress their emotions in favor of being more moderate?"

"Why am I supposed to view gays are heroes when all they are doing is something disgusting? What value is there? Why is this something I should be interested in embracing close to myself?"

"I'm a nationalist. Our country is free, others arent. Our country once had decent values and didn't sit there glorifying a bunch of New Age, artsy crap.... I hate you, dad!"

They'll listen to bands that espouse militarism, discipline, strength, composure; bands that want to see the nations rise strong and united and opposed to the way we are held hostage by world opinion trying to make peace with Islamists.

They'll look at the pointlessness of the decades before them and re-ascribe meaning to their lives.

Chances are, they won't be conventional social conservatives but rather be Libertarians and angry youth excited about raising a fist to the delicate, tender political correctness you embrace.

More or less, the elements within Black Metal and Grindcore are sort of there, hinting at what is to come.

Oddly, the Grindcore movement in Europe is even seeing a surge of right wingers.

The Oi! movements in Europe and America, the non-racist movement, is also seeing a surge in general nationalism. Bands that cut records today are often alarmingly patriotic. The notion of a strong-jawed working class man and the nobility of Motherhood are resurfacing in the underground.

I doubt these people will be Christians in majority, but there will be substantially more amongst them; they will set the grounds for devouring political correctness, "tolerance" and everything contemporary.

It's in the wake of this destruction, when these kids are older, when they are looking for more meaning, that religions will become more popularized as the inherent hatred of the former decades will turn them away from senseless exoticism.

If I have any say, your kid will view the morality of today as weak, baseless and pathetic and will be looking to a high sense of values of right and wrong to counter it.

If you give kids nothing to believe in, they will find something to believe in and hate the nothingness you gave them.

If you give kids something to believe in, they will find faults with your something and progress slowly towards nothingness.

It's just the way that many humans work -- they need to cleanse themselves of the ideas put on them, find a middle ground.

If there are no traumatic scenarios the transition will be a slow movement to conservatism, with people just going a bit more right each time they are born as people had gone abit more left.

But Heaven Forbid there is an economic collapse or a great tragedy -- for then, like in all times of tragedy, the transition will be smooth and swift and put you on your head.

This is the way the world works, and this is the way history re-writes itself.

Our victory is either Won, or our victory is Nigh.

And the same goes for you.

Enjoy your time in power -- for I will enjoy my time in contributing to your downfall.

When I am older and bolder and have done a great many things in the name of God and in the name of licking myself clean of the slime put into my mind by the Public School system, and I am helpign others to see the absurdity in the moral relativity and political correctness, we will have a really riotous laugh session thinking about all of this.

 

[Texas Lynn]

The type of "social conservatism" as represented by the religious right groups is in decline right now. That does not mean they will be so forever but without changes in strategy, tactics, and goals they are not likely to recover any time soon.

We went through a time (roughly 1977-2004) when they had ascendancy through their alliances with the Republican Party and other forces of plutocracy, but, interestingly, none of their goals were realized.

They had been dormant for 52 years, since the Scopes trial. Perhaps in another 52 years they'll be back in some form. Though it's hard to imagine how.

 

[CCGirl]

We can only hope so.

 

[Verv]

The type of "social conservatism" as represented by the religious right groups is in decline right now. That does not mean they will be so forever but without changes in strategy, tactics, and goals they are not likely to recover any time soon.

We went through a time (roughly 1977-2004) when they had ascendancy through their alliances with the Republican Party and other forces of plutocracy, but, interestingly, none of their goals were realized.

They had been dormant for 52 years, since the Scopes trial. Perhaps in another 52 years they'll be back in some form. Though it's hard to imagine how.

You should read my post if you want to know 'how,' or you should listen to some Black Metal or Grindcore. It will be a very different apparition because the manifestation of our existence will come from below and not from above -- the social conservatives of tomorrow are lurking in the undermost depths of the art scene, and just like the liberal movement gained power through the smaller corners of society, so shall the conservative movement.

We did it before in the early 20th century.

And furthermore... The Scopes bit isn't really a social conservative thing by any means -- it was just the shock of a generation; it was damaging to social conservatism, naturally, but the real battles were not fought until the 1960s in America.

I would link you to some stuff but like all movements, it is a bit below the good standards and conducts of our society. Just as how feminism saw some radicalization until there was any mainstream conservatism lurks in very radical artforms today.

It is going to be funny to see the roles reversed -- I suspect you will see a little in 10 years, a lot in 20, and more in 30.

You have to really go down to the underbelly, now, and listen to things you've never even heard of to see where it is going to come from.

 

[QuakerOats]

It's hard to gauge social conservatism in Canada because it doesn't exist here to the same extent that it does in the USA. It seems to be fewer and farther between, and not as 'in your face.' That said, I believe the 'pendulum effect' is an accurate depiction of how things tend to run. I prefer to be optimistic, and remain hopeful however, and pray that even if the pendulum begins to swing back in the opposite direction, it will not go completely back.

 

[Andreusz]

I am no fascist.

.

The rest of your post suggests that this statement is open to debate.

 

[Verv]

It's hard to gauge social conservatism in Canada because it doesn't exist here to the same extent that it does in the USA. It seems to be fewer and farther between, and not as 'in your face.' That said, I believe the 'pendulum effect' is an accurate depiction of how things tend to run. I prefer to be optimistic, and remain hopeful however, and pray that even if the pendulum begins to swing back in the opposite direction, it will not go completely back.

It is dependent on how extreme the reaction of those in power are.

For instance, in our current society we have had some backlashes but they are nothing compared to how things used to be.

We are all well aware that the Treaty of Versailles set up WWII by being overly punitive to Germany. The natural reaction was a hostile one from Germany, one that was fueled by a sense of vindictiveness.

People who have something forced upon them harshly will react harshly.

USA was capable of existing with a generally laissez-faire economy until the Great Depression.

 

[Tenka]

Righ tnow, in south Korea, I am uniting the hardcore underground

I don't mean to be insulting, but ...aren't you a kind of old to be in the 'hardcore' scene?
It pretty much seems to be composed of teens who are enjoying a feeling of moral superiority by rejecting things they're too immature either appreciate or moderate for themselves.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I was reading the other thread about voting for laws against homosexuality and it brought up some interesting points.

What, do you think, will be the fate of social conservatism in America? obviously, liberalism has won out in areas like Britain and Canada, but the last vestiges of the movement seem to have a stronghold in the US.

Since I am a younger person myself, I obviously have a lot of interaction with other people my age. I wouldn't say that fiscal conservatism is dying out. I would say, however, that social conservatism is what is on the decline. If you were to ask the average teen between the ages of 16 and 21 their opinions on issues of today, you would find that they almost always take a much more liberal stance on things. If there is one thing we are good at, it is accepting other people of different nationalities, origins, backgrounds, ect. This was sorely lacking in previous generations. The 60's were an obvious exception, simply because that era paved the way for a sort of flushing out of old ideals that were held in the rigid societies of the 50's and below.
It would seem that a reason for this, be it coinicidental or not, is the progression of modern technology and information. People simply are much better connected and more in-tune with each other than they were, say, 40 or 50 years ago. Through things like TV and the Internet, we are exposed to different people, cultures, and viewpoints. The media has also contributed to the "numbing" or American culture that has helped to make certain people less shocked by, say, the idea of two people having premarital sex or two people of the same sex kissing. That's not to say that people didn't do this before. It was just much more private.

It would seem that the Right in America reached its peak a few years ago with Bush, and after he flubbed everything up it just made a nail in the coffin of the Right. The average attitude of a younger American when asked about the Republican party is this:
"Oh, they're all a bunch of snobby old rich white guys that don't care about anyone else."

Part of the reason for this attitude in newer generations, I think, is the fact that before the dawn of modern technology and communication the "rich old white guys" were the most knowledgable ones out there simply because they were around longer and stereotypically in control. However, now with the readily available technology and information, younger people see no need for this stereotypical "Rich Old White Guy In Control". If you've ever seen Dead Poets Society (awesome movie by the way), I mean people like the principal and the father of Neal Perry.

I'm not saying these are nessesarily bad people. I have a lot of respect for people like my father and grandfather, who were both strict but helped shape me into the young man I am today. I am just saying that they have stricter and more traditional ways that younger people now have less respect for.

So, my point is this: soceity is gradually getting more and more liberal. Will the younger generations soon find no more need for the "old ways" of social conservatism?

Is social conservatism dead?

Is social conservatism dead?

Go see what the Romans said about this to Nero.

What goes around comes around and goes around and comes around and goes around and comes around.

He we are again on that merry-go-round.

 

[b&wpac4]

What goes around comes around and goes around and comes around and goes around and comes around.

He we are again on that merry-go-round.

Wow, I actually agree with something you said. People have pretty much remained the same, with extremes on either side taking over for brief amounts of time before the necessary reaction to it occurs, swinging society back the other way.

 

[Aten's Apostle]

Righ tnow, in south Korea, I am uniting the hardcore underground Left who has a concept of real values with my own position to focus on cultural criticisms; I support abandoning modern liberalism in favor of an almost tribalistic, barbaric approach to morality and embracing political libertarianism.

The more we get people to clean their brains of the filth they began spouting in the 1960s the easier it is to win people to a cause of conservatism.

The new conservative movement will look identical to what the Futurists and Fascists were doing in the early 20th century (though I am no fascist).

If you are in your late teens or twenties, your kids will probably one day read something that me or my associates are writing today, and they will probably listen to music that me and my associates are making today.

The elements within Black Metal and Grindcore are sort of there, hinting at what is to come.

Oddly, the Grindcore movement in Europe is even seeing a surge of right wingers.

I doubt these people will be Christians in majority, but there will be substantially more amongst them; they will set the grounds for devouring political correctness, "tolerance" and everything contemporary.

If I have any say, your kid will view the morality of today as weak, baseless and pathetic and will be looking to a high sense of values of right and wrong to counter it.

If you give kids nothing to believe in, they will find something to believe in and hate the nothingness you gave them.

If you give kids something to believe in, they will find faults with your something and progress slowly towards nothingness.

It's just the way that many humans work -- they need to cleanse themselves of the ideas put on them, find a middle ground.

When I am older and bolder and have done a great many things in the name of God and in the name of licking myself clean of the slime put into my mind by the Public School system, and I am helpign others to see the absurdity in the moral relativity and political correctness, we will have a really riotous laugh session thinking about all of this.

You should read my post if you want to know 'how,' or you should listen to some Black Metal or Grindcore. It will be a very different apparition because the manifestation of our existence will come from below and not from above -- the social conservatives of tomorrow are lurking in the undermost depths of the art scene, and just like the liberal movement gained power through the smaller corners of society, so shall the conservative movement.

Let’s get this straight; because I’m a little lost from reading your posts (the most egregiously silly elements of which I have quoted above). What you seem to believe is the current left-wing consensus will be replaced by religious social conservatism that is not really religious social conservatism but actually fascism. You applaud this prophesised event and the social order that will emerge after this, even though you’re not-a-fascist(tm). Moreover, this event will be accomplished by a fusion of the “hardcore underground Left” who apparently have “a concept of real values” with your own ideology, which is something you personally are undertaking in South Korea. Fitting somewhere into this mixture is the notion that this event will lead by Black Metal and Grindcore, both thoroughly underground and un-influential genres, which have been since their founding explicitly anti-Christian in the case of the former, and left wing in the case of the latter.

I don’t think you come across as a prophet with much credibility, in fact, your posts read like the rants of a madman.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

Let’s get this straight; because I’m a little lost from reading your posts (the most egregiously silly elements of which I have quoted above). What you seem to believe is the current left-wing consensus will be replaced by religious social conservatism that is not really religious social conservatism but actually fascism. You applaud this prophesised event and the social order that will emerge after this, even though you’re not-a-fascisttm. Moreover, this event will be accomplished by a fusion of the “hardcore underground Left” which apparently have “a concept of real values” with your own ideology, which is something you personally are undertaking in South Korea. Fitting somewhere into this mixture is the notion that this event will lead by Black Metal and Grindcore, both thoroughly underground and un-influential genres, which have been since their founding explicitly anti-Christian in the case of the former, and left wing in the case of the latter.

I don’t think you come across as a prophet with much credibility, in fact, your posts read like the rants of a madman.

You have to wonder about who the real mad men are when some some of them have spent a lot of time in the endeavor to become highly educated and still, really, actually, promote that everything came from nothing by nothing causing it. Of course they do preface that with "As far as we know." I guess that's something of a lurching back towards sanity.

Whereas it certainly appears, that conservative thought never leaves a healthy mind.

 

[SughaNSpice]

I think social conservatism hurt itself when it got into bed with the religious right. The end result was that social conservatives and by extension the Republican party became associated (and rightly so) with intolerance, discrimination and xenophobia

As the old saying goes –
You lay down with dogs – you wake up with fleas

 

[Psudopod]

You have to wonder about who the real mad men are when some some of them have spent a lot of time in the endeavor to become highly educated and still, really, actually, promote that everything came from nothing by nothing causing it. Of course they do preface that with "As far as we know." I guess that's something of a lurching back towards sanity.

Who's promoting that?

 

[Texas Lynn]

You should read my post if you want to know 'how,' or you should listen to some Black Metal or Grindcore. It will be a very different apparition because the manifestation of our existence will come from below and not from above -- the social conservatives of tomorrow are lurking in the undermost depths of the art scene, and just like the liberal movement gained power through the smaller corners of society, so shall the conservative movement.

We did it before in the early 20th century.

And furthermore... The Scopes bit isn't really a social conservative thing by any means -- it was just the shock of a generation; it was damaging to social conservatism, naturally, but the real battles were not fought until the 1960s in America.

I would link you to some stuff but like all movements, it is a bit below the good standards and conducts of our society. Just as how feminism saw some radicalization until there was any mainstream conservatism lurks in very radical artforms today.

It is going to be funny to see the roles reversed -- I suspect you will see a little in 10 years, a lot in 20, and more in 30.

You have to really go down to the underbelly, now, and listen to things you've never even heard of to see where it is going to come from.

I'm not interested in receiving ear injuries. I like stuff like Ani DiFranco and David Byrne. I don't even know what that stuff is. It seems like the same stuff the Aryan Brotherhood types put out.

Yeah, it is possible to change society with the influence of music, but most of the time the efforts fall flat.

Social conservatism generally isn't going to come from below because those below are the ones most hurt by it.

 

[Polycarp_fan]

I think social conservatism hurt itself when it got into bed with the religious right. The end result was that social conservatives and by extension the Republican party became associated (and rightly so) with intolerance, discrimination and xenophobia

As the old saying goes –
You lay down with dogs – you wake up with fleas

Of course fleas can't give you an STD.

 

[Texas Lynn]

Of course fleas can't give you an STD.

And your point is.........?