Is Shame a virtue?

Aussie Pete said:

Children run around naked quite happily up until a certain age. We had trouble keeping our young son clothed. He's strip off as soon as he could, which was no fun when we were going out. Once he became self conscious, that ended. We did not tell him that going naked was wrong, just inconvenient. Flaunting nakedness is rebellion against God, who clothed Adam and Eve as soon as they left Eden.

"And you must not go up to My altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it." Exodus 20:26

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God accommodated them in their new state, in their brave new world of autonomy from Him where He knew that they would now be living in a conflicted, self conscious, non-innocent state. This temporary world is not how God intended, or intends, for us to live. We didn’t suddenly gain maturity in Eden; we lost innocence and gained shame. We cant, we’re unable in this compromised world, to regain that degree of innocent perfection now.

Aussie Pete said:

Adam and Eve were good but incomplete. They chose the wrong source to be completed.

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I agree with this.
But not sure what this is getting at:

Aussie Pete said:

The whole world runs by the principle of good and evil. Look where it has got us.

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Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
Probably varies by culture and whats been historically accepted. Also contextual. Girl in a bikini at a beach vs the grocery store. Dude with way to short shorts on the train isnt cool either.

Do you believe that God endorse or is pleased with that shame?
No. Im pretty new to all this but he didnt seem pleased when Adam and Eve ate the apple and then covered temselves in shame

Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
No. We are made in his image.

What does God think about our bodies?
Cant speak for God. Again made in his image so Id guess he was pleased.

What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?
Temple to be loved and cared for.

fhansen said:

I agree with this.
But not sure what this is getting at:

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One of the posters said that it was OK to live by the principle of good and evil. My point is that the world is a desperate mess because of it. God forbade eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil for a reason. Man was not designed to live that way. That principle allows man to be independent of God. We were created in God's image to be His children, in relationship and fellowship, not independent of Him.

Aussie Pete said:

One of the posters said that it was OK to live by the principle of good and evil. My point is that the world is a desperate mess because of it. God forbade eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil for a reason. Man was not designed to live that way. That principle allows man to be independent of God. We were created in God's image to be His children, in relationship and fellowship, not independent of Him.

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I agree with that, that we're not created to be independent of Him. I'm just not sure what the principle of good and evil is.

MyChainsAreGone said:

I have always defined shame this way.

The belief that one is...

• Unaccepted and unacceptable.
• Unloved and unlovable.
• Unworthy and worthless.

Looks like Brené and I are pretty much on the same page.

• Flawed = unworthy and worthless.
• Unworthy of love = I'm loved and unlovable.
• I'm worthy of belonging = unaccepted and unacceptable.

Thanks for that resource

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That’s despair over one’s salvation, which is sinful.

However, regardless of your preferred definition, shame can also consist of remorse, which is an appropriate attitude towards sin, more appropriate than shamelessness which is a vice, however, as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware pointed out, it is better that repentance be a positive changing of mind, focusing on God, and on hope that God through the uncreated grace conveyed into us through the indwelling of God in the person of the Holy Spirit might deliver us from sin and perfect us in Christ, than on a negative angsty regret which borders upon self-pity.

There are two thoughts from which every Christian must flee, according to Blessed St. Theophan the Recluse, firstly, that we have have attained some level of holiness, and secondly, that we are beyond hope of God’s salvation, for the former leads into prideful delusion, and the latter into a spiritual despair, both of which are dangerous.

Thus shame can be a virtue, if it is understood in the manner outlined by @fhansen , as the opposite of shamelessness (sinful pride) if we approach God as the prodigal son, in humility, recognizing that we have sinned and are not holy, but hopeful in some redemption from Him, without seeking that redemption in an entitled manner.

HTacianas said:

Rather than shame, a better word is modesty. Even though the bible does use the term shame as analogous to the guilt of sin, see Jude 1:13, Rev 3:18, 16:15. And yes, there are parts of the body that should be concealed based on modesty. Traditionally both men and women have covered themselves in public from neck to ankle out of modesty. Exposing the body can induce lust in others. The Didascalia Apostolorum contains commandments for men and women regarding manner of dress, and they are pretty much the same for both sexes. Though it has historically been women who are more likely to dress immodestly in order to attract attention to themselves.

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Absolutely.

Genesis Chapter 1 accounts for God creating everything and after each element it was stated that "it was good". Therefore Adam and Eve must have know what is good. All that they learnt from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil could only have been what is evil. Essential that Tree has been, to man, as a virus is to a computer. It has introduced another process into man's thinking whereby we attempt to delineate what is good or evil based upon our own arbitrary standards of what we think is going to be good or bad for us. They are not God's thoughts or even His ways.

This makes it difficult, if not impossible, for us to define what is shameful because we are always subject to a fallen mindset. What we tend to gravitate towards are the things we are told by our society and that changes from one period to another and even varies between different cultures. When I was young, in the Baptist Church, it was normal for men to wear a speedo style of togs and if ladies wore a bikini that was really no big deal. Now the Church I go to considers those to be shameful. Even my secular society mocks men (think... Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbot) wearing speedos instead of boardies. In a European society there could be a completely different attitude to what they consider as shameful. Perhaps it would be worthwhile for us to try and determine what things the people of biblical times were ashamed of, and why that was the case, if we are to understand the Genesis accounts.

The initial premise involves a false assumption.

The shame of dressing indecently has nothing at all to do with being ashamed of your body. There is nothing shameful about the body. The body is created by God and is therefore good, beautiful, and true.

What people who dress indecently OUGHT to be ashamed of, is not their body, but their behavior.

For example, I used to be ashamed to take my shirt off at the beach, because I am overweight and was ashamed of my body. That was NOT a proper occasion of shame. That was a bad instance of shame.

If I were to go shirtless to a funeral, I should probably feel some degree of shame. Not because of my body, but because my behavior is showing disregard for the good of others and for the gravity of the occasion.

Standards of how we dress fundamentally are about two things. #1 respect for others and their good and #2 respect for occasions and places.

We dress a certain way for funerals because we are showing respect to both the people who suffered loss, to the occasion of remembering and honoring someone's life, and ultimately even to the person who died.

If you refuse to dress appropriately for a funeral, what you are doing is saying "I value myself above all of you, and I have no respect for the occasion or your feelings." It is a profound act of selfishness. Of such an act a person should be ashamed.

Similarly, when it comes to dressing in a revealing manner that goes beyond what is socially acceptable, this again is a statement that I value myself above the good of others and I put my desire to express myself and to draw attention to myself above the good of others who may be negatively impacted by what I am doing.

That is what a person should be ashamed of.

Most of the time, the need that drives people to dress provocatively in revealing clothes, is a need for attention. It is a need to make themselves feel a certain way.

To put your need for attention above the good of society and the good of others who might be harmed by what you are doing, is shameful.

Shame is not, however, a virtue (as far as I am aware).
Shame is the emotion or feeling that accompanies the conviction that you have either done something wrong or you are something wrong.

Shame in the sense of knowing that you have done something wrong is good, natural, and necessary.
Shame in the sense of feeling that you ARE something wrong is more often destructive, toxic, and false.

Shame is also specifically geared to relational situations and relational morality. You feel shame when you are conscious that you have done wrong, in the eyes of someone else.
This means that shame is essentially the function of conscience within the context of relationship. Conscience tells us when we have done wrong, shame is what we feel when we know we have done wrong and that others are aware of it.

To ask "have you no shame" could thus, be understood to mean either "have you no conscience?" or "do you not care that you are flagrantly doing wrong in front of everyone?"

MyChainsAreGone said:

"Have you no shame?!?"​

Once upon a time, such a question might have been asked of a young man or a young woman if they dared to wear clothing that was judged to be too "revealing" or "sensual."

The question, of course, is loaded with a very significant assumption... that a young person SHOULD have some shame about their bodies... or least as it relates to allowing some parts of their bodies to be seen by others.

It has been asserted by some here at CF that the exposure of our bodies in the wrong context should be considered shameful, and therefore avoided.

For the purpose of this post and the responses that I hope it engenders, let's allow that assertion to be a given.

I want to ask people who believe that to be true to expand on the understanding and provide more tangible details about what that means.

So here are some specific questions that I'd like to ask on the topic:

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

GROUND RULES FOR THIS TOPIC...

• I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers to rebuff or refute. Your responses will stand on their own.
  • Caveat... I may offer follow-up questions to seek more clarity in stated perspectives.
• Others may respond if they want.
• You don't have to answer all of the questions. Pick and choose any or all, or skip the questions and just articulate your own perspective on the topic of body shame.
• Make only statements that clearly articulate what YOU believe... Do not assert what you think OTHERS believe in order to shoot it down.
• Do not disparage me for raising the topic or asking genuine questions... if anyone does so, it will be assumed that they don't actually have any answers to my questions.
• If you believe the questions to be slanted, misguided, or dishonest, you may explain why you think so and articulate how you believe the questions should be asked and/or ask questions of your own for others to answer instead (I will not be answering them, so don't address them to me)
• Do not demean ANYONE with your comments, questions, or responses.

If you're not agreeable to these "ground rules," please do not post anything.

The purpose of this post is to allow you to articulate your own perspective about the topic. State it as clearly as possible, and defend it as fully as you think it needs.

Go.

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1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women? Yes and no. Yes because we have made it so culturally. But in different cultures, contexts and time periods different body part were deemed shameful. So that brings up the question, if such shame is culturally based, is it objectively justified?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame? No, when Adam and Eve tried to hide themselves from God, one reason for doing so was over shame of being naked, and it was snot God who told them they were naked or to feel shame over that fact.
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God? No. Now he can be displeased with how we use them, as with anything, but not body parts that he himself created.
4. What does God think about our bodies? They were very God, now we live in a sinful world and our bodies are imperfect, but that is related to disease and deformation, not in a shame sense.
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies? A positive attitude (sure we should strive to be healthy but not feel shame over our bodies just because)