Is Shame a virtue?

[fhansen]

Children run around naked quite happily up until a certain age. We had trouble keeping our young son clothed. He's strip off as soon as he could, which was no fun when we were going out. Once he became self conscious, that ended. We did not tell him that going naked was wrong, just inconvenient. Flaunting nakedness is rebellion against God, who clothed Adam and Eve as soon as they left Eden.

"And you must not go up to My altar on steps, lest your nakedness be exposed on it." Exodus 20:26

God accommodated them in their new state, in their brave new world of autonomy from Him where He knew that they would now be living in a conflicted, self conscious, non-innocent state. This temporary world is not how God intended, or intends, for us to live. We didn’t suddenly gain maturity in Eden; we lost innocence and gained shame. We cant, we’re unable in this compromised world, to regain that degree of innocent perfection now.

 

[fhansen]

Adam and Eve were good but incomplete. They chose the wrong source to be completed.

I agree with this.
But not sure what this is getting at:

The whole world runs by the principle of good and evil. Look where it has got us.

 

[Ken405]

Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
Probably varies by culture and whats been historically accepted. Also contextual. Girl in a bikini at a beach vs the grocery store. Dude with way to short shorts on the train isnt cool either.

Do you believe that God endorse or is pleased with that shame?
No. Im pretty new to all this but he didnt seem pleased when Adam and Eve ate the apple and then covered temselves in shame

Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
No. We are made in his image.

What does God think about our bodies?
Cant speak for God. Again made in his image so Id guess he was pleased.

What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?
Temple to be loved and cared for.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I agree with this.
But not sure what this is getting at:

One of the posters said that it was OK to live by the principle of good and evil. My point is that the world is a desperate mess because of it. God forbade eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil for a reason. Man was not designed to live that way. That principle allows man to be independent of God. We were created in God's image to be His children, in relationship and fellowship, not independent of Him.

 

[fhansen]

One of the posters said that it was OK to live by the principle of good and evil. My point is that the world is a desperate mess because of it. God forbade eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil for a reason. Man was not designed to live that way. That principle allows man to be independent of God. We were created in God's image to be His children, in relationship and fellowship, not independent of Him.

I agree with that, that we're not created to be independent of Him. I'm just not sure what the principle of good and evil is.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

If we are ashamed of our body part, then we are ashamed of what God has created.

Brene Brown is a shame researcher.

brene brown define shame - Google Search

Brené defines shame as the intensely painful feeling or experience of believing that we are flawed and therefore unworthy of love and belonging. We feel like something we've experienced, done, or failed to do makes us unworthy of connection.

I have always defined shame this way.

The belief that one is...

• Unaccepted and unacceptable.
• Unloved and unlovable.
• Unworthy and worthless.

Looks like Brené and I are pretty much on the same page.

• Flawed = unworthy and worthless.
• Unworthy of love = I'm loved and unlovable.
• I'm worthy of belonging = unaccepted and unacceptable.

Thanks for that resource

 

[The Liturgist]

I have always defined shame this way.

The belief that one is...

• Unaccepted and unacceptable.
• Unloved and unlovable.
• Unworthy and worthless.

Looks like Brené and I are pretty much on the same page.

• Flawed = unworthy and worthless.
• Unworthy of love = I'm loved and unlovable.
• I'm worthy of belonging = unaccepted and unacceptable.

Thanks for that resource

That’s despair over one’s salvation, which is sinful.

However, regardless of your preferred definition, shame can also consist of remorse, which is an appropriate attitude towards sin, more appropriate than shamelessness which is a vice, however, as Metropolitan Kallistos Ware pointed out, it is better that repentance be a positive changing of mind, focusing on God, and on hope that God through the uncreated grace conveyed into us through the indwelling of God in the person of the Holy Spirit might deliver us from sin and perfect us in Christ, than on a negative angsty regret which borders upon self-pity.

There are two thoughts from which every Christian must flee, according to Blessed St. Theophan the Recluse, firstly, that we have have attained some level of holiness, and secondly, that we are beyond hope of God’s salvation, for the former leads into prideful delusion, and the latter into a spiritual despair, both of which are dangerous.

Thus shame can be a virtue, if it is understood in the manner outlined by @fhansen , as the opposite of shamelessness (sinful pride) if we approach God as the prodigal son, in humility, recognizing that we have sinned and are not holy, but hopeful in some redemption from Him, without seeking that redemption in an entitled manner.

 

[The Liturgist]

Rather than shame, a better word is modesty. Even though the bible does use the term shame as analogous to the guilt of sin, see Jude 1:13, Rev 3:18, 16:15. And yes, there are parts of the body that should be concealed based on modesty. Traditionally both men and women have covered themselves in public from neck to ankle out of modesty. Exposing the body can induce lust in others. The Didascalia Apostolorum contains commandments for men and women regarding manner of dress, and they are pretty much the same for both sexes. Though it has historically been women who are more likely to dress immodestly in order to attract attention to themselves.

Absolutely.