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Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas?

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ThatTrueLight

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There's one to show as Dogma, how that a man in your assembly can say a blessing upon a wafer and then have it become God. Same with wine?

Could you do that, explain how that glorifies God? Making a physical thing in the hand of a man, suddenly and supposedly turns into God?
 
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MoreCoffee

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Before any discussion of the Eucharist can properly take place it is necessary to know what the Eucharist is.
Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
The holy Eucharist is the ritual, sacramental action of thanksgiving to God which constitutes the principal Christian liturgical celebration of and communion in the paschal mystery of Christ. The liturgical action called the Eucharist is also traditionally known as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is one of the seven sacraments of the Church; the Holy Eucharist completes Christian initiation (see CCC section 1322 ff.). The Sunday celebration of the Eucharist is at the heart of the Church’s life (see CCC section 2177).
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Before any discussion of the Eucharist can properly take place it is necessary to know what the Eucharist is.

Is it safe to say that you have been taught that a man (just like you or me) is speaking a blessing upon a (at that time, just a wafer of bread), which then makes it turn into the body of Christ.. literally and physically God?

Is that close?
 
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MoreCoffee

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The mass which includes the celebration of the holy Eucharist as its centre and most sacred act of worship has been celebrated by the faithful from the beginning.

As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161 AD) around the year 155 AD, explaining what Christians did:
  • On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
  • The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
  • When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
  • Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
  • When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
  • Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
  • He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
  • When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’
  • When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
(see the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 1345 to 1347)
 
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ThatTrueLight

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The mass which includes the celebration of the holy Eucharist as its centre and most sacred act of worship has been celebrated by the faithful from the beginning.

As early as the second century we have the witness of St. Justin Martyr for the basic lines of the order of the Eucharistic celebration. They have stayed the same until our own day for all the great liturgical families. St. Justin wrote to the pagan emperor Antoninus Pius (138-161 AD) around the year 155 AD, explaining what Christians did:
  • On the day we call the day of the sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place.
  • The memoirs of the apostles and the writings of the prophets are read, as much as time permits.
  • When the reader has finished, he who presides over those gathered admonishes and challenges them to imitate these beautiful things.
  • Then we all rise together and offer prayers for ourselves... and for all others, wherever they may be, so that we may be found righteous by our life and actions, and faithful to the commandments, so as to obtain eternal salvation.
  • When the prayers are concluded we exchange the kiss.
  • Then someone brings bread and a cup of water and wine mixed together to him who presides over the brethren.
  • He takes them and offers praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and for a considerable time he gives thanks (in Greek: eucharistian) that we have been judged worthy of these gifts.
  • When he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all present give voice to an acclamation by saying: ‘Amen.’
  • When he who presides has given thanks and the people have responded, those whom we call deacons give to those present the “eucharisted” bread, wine and water and take them to those who are absent.
(see the Catechism of the Catholic Church sections 1345 to 1347)

Yes I get all that.

I'm simply asking how it is that you were taught or led to believe that what is actually happening is that the blessing upon a wafer is then turning it into the body of Christ (God's body) literally, correct?

Is that a class that you take or something, I'm just asking because I have no idea how a man might be led to believe that.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Belief that the bread and the wine after the giving of thanks are in truth the body and the blood as well as the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is the teaching of Christ and the apostles and has been taught in the church and believed by the faithful from the beginning. That is why the gospels contain these passages.
  • And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:26-29)
  • And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. (Mark 14:22-25)
  • And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:14-20)
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Belief that the bread and the wine after the giving of thanks are in truth the body and the blood as well as the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ is the teaching of Christ and the apostles and has been taught in the church and believed by the faithful from the beginning. That is why the gospels contain these passages.
  • And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. (Matthew 26:26-29)
  • And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body. And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many. Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. (Mark 14:22-25)
  • And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. (Luke 22:14-20)

The Passover eaten with the twelve, which He shall not eat again until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God?

That makes you believe that a man in your assembly is turning a wafer into the body of Christ? The Jewish Passover Meal eaten with the Apostles?
 
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MoreCoffee

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The Lord Jesus Christ explained the necessity of eating his flesh and drinking his blood this way.

Holy scripture in the gospel according to saint John the apostle said:
The day following, when the people which stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was none other boat there, save that one whereinto his disciples were entered, and that Jesus went not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples were gone away alone; (Howbeit there came other boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they did eat bread, after that the Lord had given thanks: ) When the people therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they also took shipping, and came to Capernaum, seeking for Jesus. And when they had found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed. Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
(John 6:22-71)

This call to eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ is a call for all the faithful in all ages since he spoke the above words.
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Do you believe the passages of holy scripture that I quoted from the KJV?

Absolutely, I understand the Jewish Passover and how that the Lord shall not eat of it again until is fulfilled in the kingdom of God, and the gospels show us that this is when He comes again.

I also believe that the words of our Lord Jesus Christ are Spirit and life.. and that we literally do live by His every word.

Not by physically eating ourselves, the body of Christ.
 
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MoreCoffee

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ThatTrueLight

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I truly believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who taketh away the sin of the world and yet I am also 100% certain that He isn't an animal.

So by your premise, I must therefore conclude that Jesus actually IS an animal in the case of His being the Lamb of God.
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Then why contradict the word of God spoken out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ?

You'll find that the contradiction and the inconsistency is with you.

Is Jesus literally a door with a doorknob, or is He spiritually the door which men must pass through to be saved?

How about loaf of bread, is that what God literally is, or do His spiritual words feed us daily with the words of eternal life?
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Let God be true. Opinions of men, such as those in the posts contradicting the words of the Lord Jesus Christ, are not true. Let God be true even if doing so makes every man a liar.

Amen to that, especially when they believe that a man is turning bread into the body of Christ, which is the church.

Doesn't make a lot of sense for the church to be eating itself.
 
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MoreCoffee

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Because Christ our Redeemer said that it is truly his body that he is offered under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood.
 
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ThatTrueLight

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Because Christ our Redeemer said that it is truly his body that he is offered under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood.

Conviction is fine when it is consistent.

How is the body of Christ eating the body of Christ first of all?

Why might be a better question.

Why isn't the Lord also a physical door with a doorknob in your building where you come together to remember the Lord in His death til He come?

Is He also literally all the lights in the building also? After all, He is the LIGHT of the world.
 
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