Is Scripture MISSING Dogmas? (2)

[MoreCoffee]

We are all saints. Im St. Souldier. That doesnt mean anyone should glorify me because i am nothing. We are supposed strive for a united mindset. Thats hard to do when we put some obove others. Also, its for that reason (and others) that we dont pray to saints. The scriptures also say not to call any man father or teacher, and not to be called that either, because we are all brethren and only Christ is the teacher. This agrees with pauls exhortation not to glory in men

I pray God that we all shall prove to be saints in the great and terrifying day of the Lord when the souls of men shall be judged.

 

[Souldier]

I pray God that we all shall prove to be saints in the great and terrifying day of the Lord when the souls of men shall be judged.

So you admit that God is the judge and not man. Thats good. Why then do you think that men should attain sainthood through the judgment of men instead of God himself? If we must wait till Judgment day then why are you calling some men saints but not others? Did God judge them already? Were you there to see that Judgment? If not then how can you call any man a saint?

 

[SpyderByte]

Mary's bodily assumption into heaven is biblical; first she is seen in Heaven in The Apocalypse of saint John the Theologian chapters eleven and twelve;

Another I stance where a Catholic is in disunity with the rcc: * [12:1] The woman adorned with the sun, the moon, and the stars (images taken from[bless and do not curse]Gn 37:9–10) symbolizes God’s people in the Old and the New Testament. The Israel of old gave birth to the Messiah (Rev 12:5) and then became the new Israel, the church, which suffers persecution by the dragon (Rev 12:6,[bless and do not curse]13–17); cf.[bless and do not curse]Is 50:1;[bless and do not curse]66:7;[bless and do not curse]Jer 50:12. This corresponds to a widespread myth throughout the ancient world that a goddess pregnant with a savior was pursued by a horrible monster; by miraculous intervention, she bore a son who then killed the monster.

* [12:2] Because of Eve’s sin, the woman gives birth in distress and pain (Gn 3:16; cf.[bless and do not curse]Is 66:7–14). http://www.usccb.org/bible/revelation/12

 

[SpyderByte]

It is interpretation, without doubt, but it is what the one holy Catholic and apostolic church teaches and I believe it. Others may interpret matters differently according to different criteria and for the service of a different theology.

See my reply to your Mary assertion. You are incorrect.

 

[SpyderByte]

They did put it in the canons of the first council of Nicea and in the subsequent Oecumenical councils.

Nicea had nothing to do with the canon of Scripture.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The canons of the first council of Nicea describe the decisions of the council; the rules they wrote for the church to follow. These canons are not the same thing as the canon of holy scripture.

 

[SpyderByte]

The canons of the first council of Nicea describe the decisions of the council; the rules they wrote for the church to follow. These canons are not the same thing as the canon of holy scripture.

My mistake, I thought you were still discussing the canon of Scripture.

 

[Albion]

In Lk 1:28 the archangel hails her as, "full of grace". Most versions today do not use that rendering, but greatly weaken it. Yet it is the correct translation as we can see from the Magisterium (Pius XII, Fulgens Corona, AAS 45, 579, and constant use of the Church) and also from philology.

Same thing is said about Stephen - and nobody imagines an "immaculate conception" for Stephen because like Mary - nothing of the kind is mentioned for him and it is too big a thing to simply "make up" without actual Bible support for it.


in Christ,

Bob
[/INDENT][/INDENT]

He's correct, though, that that's the particular verse which gets tortured in order to provide the semblance of an argument for this doctrine from scripture.

 

[SpyderByte]

He's correct, though, that that's the particular verse which gets tortured in order to provide the semblance of an argument for this doctrine from scripture.

As I recall, the "full of grace" is actually what was translated from the Latin, not the Greek.

Iirc kexaritomena is translated highly favored one but the Latin says ave gratia plena[bless and do not curse]which mean hail full of grace...

 

[MoreCoffee]

As I recall, the "full of grace" is actually what was translated from the Latin, not the Greek.

The Greek is κεχαριτωμενη and the Latin is gratia plena and in English both are translated as "full of grace".

 

[SpyderByte]

The Greek is κεχαριτωμενη and the Latin is gratia plena and in English both are translated as "full of grace".

Actually full of grace in Greek is plaras karitos iirc

 

[Souldier]

 

[MoreCoffee]

Actually full of grace in Greek is plaras karitos iirc

Google translate is good for modern Greek but not so hot for Koine Greek.

 

[SpyderByte]

Even Jimmy Akin admits the immaculate conception has to be read into the text: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.p...late-conception-has-to-be-read-into-luke-128/

 

[SpyderByte]

Google translate is good for modern Greek but not so hot for Koine Greek.

Sorry, I didn't use Google translate. Used the ol' bean for it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sorry, I didn't use Google translate. Used the ol' bean for it.

Then the bean produced modern Greek.

 

[Albion]

As I recall, the "full of grace" is actually what was translated from the Latin, not the Greek.

Iirc kexaritomena is translated highly favored one but the Latin says ave gratia plena[bless and do not curse]which mean hail full of grace...

It's also the translation rendered by the King James Version of the Bible, which probably makes this verse one of the very few from the KJV to find eager acceptance from Roman Catholics--even when the usual RC versions translate the same passage in much less convenient terms.

The New American Bible for Catholics, for example, translates it as "favored," and that wording is obviously not as easily twisted into a declaration of Mary as having been conceived without Original Sin.

 

[Souldier]

Mary as having been conceived without Original Sin.

In simple terms, what does that mean exactly? What is Original sin and why didnt mary have it? Was she supposed to be sinless, or is it something else?

 

[SpyderByte]

In simple terms, what does that mean exactly? What is Original sin and why didnt mary have it? Was she supposed to be sinless, or is it something else?

Original sin is the sin from Adam and the fall. The rcc teaches that out of all the people in the world, Mary was the only one to escape this and that God kept her from having this sin, and kept her from ever sinning, in direct contradiction to scripture.

 

[SpyderByte]

Then the bean produced modern Greek.

Eh, I admit I'm fallible, so I could be wrong. *shrug