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Is science at odds with philosophy?

Opdrey

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You read the fiddled nature article.

"fiddled"?

I really love to see how you denigrate a journal like Nature when it disagrees with your hopes but you belabor all the various "experts" and complain about how I don't inherently trust them right off the bat to be perfect.

5 books will tell you all about it, and support the argument.

I'm sure that if I look hard enough I could find a book that says the moon landing is a hoax, too.

Now. Let’s get one essential clear.
As radiation counters they did an ok job.

Why do you get so nasty and insulting toward people who don't come to the same conclusion as you want?

6/ Then after all that , they fiddled the data.

You do realize you are calling them LIARS, right? That's a pretty strong position.
 
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Mountainmike

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Nature was not to know.
The data they published was not the raw data they collected.
By selectively excluding outliers, they got a conformance that was not there.

After the main players had died and retired, a researcher used a legal process to get all the original data. It showed they were selective in choosing what to include in stats.
what they hid was a lack of homogeneity.

Reality is, they should have looked under a microscope, then they would have discovered the cotton linen mix, ( and nodal vanillin) where the rest of the shroud is older linen without vanillin. A few tests would ha e discovered the dye,

Thats the difference between a dater, and a radiation counter. They have to make sure a sample is representative, but they kicked out STURP who could have told them , and meacham who could have guided them.

They were counters, not daters and didn’t understand the problems.


"fiddled"?

I really love to see how you denigrate a journal like Nature when it disagrees with your hopes but you belabor all the various "experts" and complain about how I don't inherently trust them right off the bat to be perfect.



I'm sure that if I look hard enough I could find a book that says the moon landing is a hoax, too.



Why do you get so nasty and insulting toward people who don't come to the same conclusion as you want?



You do realize you are calling them LIARS, right? That's a pretty strong position.
 
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Opdrey

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The data they published was not the raw data they collected.

So now you are accusing the researchers of outright scientific fraud.

That's extremely vicious.

You bite back hard when anyone fails to find support for your religious beliefs.

Thats the difference between a dater, and a radiation counter. They have to make sure a sample is representative, but they kicked out STURP who could have told them , and meacham who could have guided them.

And when people aren't outright lying they are incompetent in your world.

Incredible levels of viciousness for those who fail to find supporting evidence. That's nice.
 
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Mountainmike

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It is Documented proven fraud.
Dig up the papers. Now proven beyond doubt. They were “ selective” and didn’t include all the results in the stats.

CHECK IT OUT! It is true!

So Let’s explain it.
The radiation counters ( I refuse to call them daters, As daters they were incompetent)

So They THOUGHT they were telling a white lie.
But There is no such thing as a white lie in science.
The data is the data. It needs explaining not massaging.

The problem is they went in assuming 1/ it was homogenous and 2/ it was a mediaeval fraud. That was the problem. Confirmation bias.

When they colluded on data, they realised the variances gave them chi squared conformance problems. So the samples would not confirm they were from the same population.

They did not analyse why, but they did not want to leave a controversy, so they just assumed they had a couple of random errors and so pushed out the outliers, then all was well.

( btw , science is used to the “ filing cabinet effect” so selection of data to tell a story is not new!)

But the problem is they were not Random errors.

What was actually going on was first a variance , but also a systematic error - a date progression.
If they had looked at the samples they would have noticed cotton that should not be there, and linen of a younger type, with progressive change into the fabric. So they would have had to admit failure.

maybe they did notice but were too scared to say…

In any event the rest is history. Sure what they tested was mostly mediaeval , but it was not a date for the cloth. As meacham told them , they did not put in proper safeguards or protocols.

Nobody accepts the date any more except flat earth sceptics. Science has moved on from the arrogance and incompetence of Gove, Halls Tite et al.

So now you are accusing the researchers of outright scientific fraud.

That's extremely vicious.

You bite back hard when anyone fails to find support for your religious beliefs.



And when people aren't outright lying they are incompetent in your world.

Incredible levels of viciousness for those who fail to find supporting evidence. That's nice.
 
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Hans Blaster

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The radiation counters ( I refuse to call them daters, As daters they were incompetent)

Well you'd be wrong then.

None of them counted any radiation.

All of the labs reporting in the Feb 1989 Nature paper used accelerator mass spectrometry. The counted the *atoms* of the carbon isotopes, not the radiation from their decay.
 
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Mountainmike

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I’m also still at a loss to understand why you consider the books of
Rogers, Adler , Meacham and Marino as non science?
they have long discredited the nature article.
The first two are your kind of science.

So now you are accusing the researchers of outright scientific fraud.

That's extremely vicious.

You bite back hard when anyone fails to find support for your religious beliefs.



And when people aren't outright lying they are incompetent in your world.

Incredible levels of viciousness for those who fail to find supporting evidence. That's nice.
 
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Mountainmike

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Well you'd be wrong then.

None of them counted any radiation.

All of the labs reporting in the Feb 1989 Nature paper used accelerator mass spectrometry. The counted the *atoms* of the carbon isotopes, not the radiation from their decay.
Whatever. They were counters, not daters.
As I first said they were isotope measurers.
Dating is how you use it, not how you measure it.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Whatever. They were counters, not daters.
As I first said they were isotope measurers.
Dating is how you use it, not how you measure it.

Oh sure, you can be sloppy in your denigrating naming, but any errors made by the shroud-testers must be pounced on vigorously. :scratch:

Also, looking at the Nature paper (and not knowing any of the specific researchers), of the 6 institutions used as bylines 2 were geological in nature (Lamont-Doherty and Arizona Geosciences), 2 were physics (Arizona Physics and ETH Zürich) and 2 were archeological in nature (Oxford Archeology Lab and the British Museum). You'd think the geologists and especially the archeologists would know how to prepare a sample and extract a date even if the physicists were just ignorant atom counters.
 
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Opdrey

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It is Documented proven fraud.

You mean like the Moon Landing?

Dig up the papers.

Care to provide any citations this time 'round?

So Let’s explain it.
The radiation counters ( I refuse to call them daters, As daters they were incompetent)

More vicious accusations.

So They THOUGHT they were telling a white lie.

Vicious accusation.

maybe they did notice but were too scared to say…

Is there any insult you will spare them? Now they are "scared".

Scared liars.

Nobody accepts the date any more except flat earth sceptics. Science has moved on from the arrogance and incompetence of Gove, Halls Tite et al.

Then maybe you can show me the most recent science paper (not a popular book you bought at Catholic Supply).
 
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SelfSim

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This saga has turned as to be one of the worst cases I've ever seen of confirmation bias, coming from someone who portrays themselves as being a 'scientist', of 'high IQ' and following consistent logic.

Stick to being Catholic, @MM. At least that might help in restoring some integrity to the viewpoint you're campaigning for. (Where by 'integrity' there, I mean the completeness and wholeness definition).
 
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Mountainmike

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Like most lazy sceptics you seem to think that there was only ever one paper on the shroud. What you mean perhaps is there is only one DISCREDITED paper. Which is the paper in nature because the numbers do not add up.

WHy do you never reaseach anythign before comment? Why so facetious about moon landings? The reasons I think what I do, is I read the science, not sceptic blogs. I have volumes and volumes of it. I have spent a life collecting it.

There is an enormous volume of science on the shroud, hundreds or thousands of papers on various aspects. One I will link later in this post. it is the most researched artefact in history bar none.

The lack of heteregoneity in the data is now accepted, which was presented as homogeneity. Yet instead of studying to see why it was heterogeneous they fiddled the data to make it homogeneous.

It was noted from the date of the nature article itself that there was something odd in the quoted deviations which did not appear to match the data.

It was not just the data. None of the accounts of the leading participants match each other. You can read the entire farce in marinos book, letter by letter, email by email and interviews with all.

So it is not possible to say with certainty who was present (accounts differ on when some arrived) what weight or size of fabric was taken (the pieces and weights do not add up to the whole), and one of the reasons given is trimming away an edge that "did not look right!! Even how many cloths were put in tubes ( a dispute over 3 or 4). Or how many people in the room at the time , was it 3 or 4? They did it all off camera with an unknown number of people present.. The whole thing was farcical, Tite admitted it was not a good look, but only admitted it later.
Nobody can trust the outcome from the process they used.

Gonella on behalf of the church was FURIOUS as his various letters prove. His comments on oxford particularly were scathing.
Remember how you demanded supervision? The labs refused to allow indepenent witnesses and then conferred before publishing. They also demanded to be in the room at the time of sampling. On a blind trial they should not have been there at all!

FOI requests on raw data finally got the entire data sets which showed zurich had more results than they claimed, outliers were discounted. Nobody did solve the mystery of where the deviation of 31 for arizona came from. The numbers calculate 17 . Number 31 was pulled out of thin air! To this day nobody knows where it came from. The numbers were made to look homogeneous when they clearly were not.

There was a massive argument going on that lasted a decade as the entire illusion of the RC date began to crumble. Now it is just ignored. When people started asking questions they were refused raw data, and nobody can answer why Halls took all the files home and refused interviews and conference appearances, and Tucson took the remaining fabric home. They were trying to dodge scrutiny.

There was a massive row going on which is documented in many books, askign why the daters ignored good procedure and the protocols.

Of course in the world of science there is a politeness. They do not use the word "fiddled" there are a lot of polite euphemisms take this in a recent paper.

Oh so polite! Here is how they say FIDDLED in "polite science speak". I prefer fiddled, since it cannot have been an accident. It was clearly deliberate so an active verb is needed.

" showed that some of the original Shroud date measurements reported by the three laboratories to the British Museum were modified from their original ‘raw’
laboratory values and transformed into their published form using an
unstated methodology"


Nice prose for fiddled dont you think? If they had not FIDDLED the figures , to try to produce artificial homogeneity, they might have noticed this.. which at very least tells you you cannot trust the dates at all.

An instructive inter-laboratory comparison: The 1988 radiocarbon dating of the Shroud of Turin - ScienceDirect

1-s2.0-S2352409X19301865-gr3.jpg


So my suggestion is you read Rogers BOOK " a chemists perspective" which expands on his paper, ditto adler, who wrote many peer reviewed papers, ditto marino etc for a full explanation of how they screwed up because of arrogance. The sample had little in common with the shroud.

The answer to the question is simple.
It was made of different "stuff", blended at the edge with real shroud . It had a lot of cotton. The shroud does not. The linen was different, and dyed. They ignored all the warning of meacham the archeologist attached to the project. The only one with much experience of RC dating fabrics! Read his book which expands on his papers.

Nobody believes the date is right, except for flat earth sceptics.



You mean like the Moon Landing?



Care to provide any citations this time 'round?



More vicious accusations.



Vicious accusation.



Is there any insult you will spare them? Now they are "scared".

Scared liars.



Then maybe you can show me the most recent science paper (not a popular book you bought at Catholic Supply).
 
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Mountainmike

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" you would have thought"

Sadly they do not. They ignored the protocols. Even basic documentation of procedure, so weights and sizes did not add up. Nothing was blind. Controls dates were given. The labs colluded. Gonella was furious about how amateur it all was. Nobody knows who was even in the room at the time of sampling for certain, or even how many textile samples there were? 3 or 4? . The sample cutting into tubes was done off camera.One thing we know for certain is part of it was discarded because it looked different...not a good start.

Tite later apologised for the mess he was instrumental in creating. ( of course nature failed to say so...)

But he is most guilty of all. He had the raw data. ( which took another 30 years to obtain by legal action) He must have known the nature article did not correspond to it. See my previous post.

Meacham was the archeologist with much experience of dating fabrics. He asked them to characterise the samples before test , and if they had done so, the reason for the debacle would have been known very quickly. There was a lot of cotton in the sample,where the shroud itself is linen. That basic question would have halted the test. But like all of STURP , the daters ignored Meachams protests as well.

As I said the fundamental problem was they were FAITH not sciecne based daters.

They had utmost belief it was mediaeval. They were not looking to date it, they were looking to confirm their apriori bias. So when the dates showed as heterogeneous, they fiddled them to make them homogeneous. They did not stop to ask why. If they had admitted heterogeneity, they would have had to invalidate the result completely. They might also have discovered the truth.



Oh sure, you can be sloppy in your denigrating naming, but any errors made by the shroud-testers must be pounced on vigorously. :scratch:

Also, looking at the Nature paper (and not knowing any of the specific researchers), of the 6 institutions used as bylines 2 were geological in nature (Lamont-Doherty and Arizona Geosciences), 2 were physics (Arizona Physics and ETH Zürich) and 2 were archeological in nature (Oxford Archeology Lab and the British Museum). You'd think the geologists and especially the archeologists would know how to prepare a sample and extract a date even if the physicists were just ignorant atom counters.
 
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