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Is science at odds with philosophy?

stevevw

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But I dont find the slightest evidence that would compel me to consider panpsychism. The best I can say for it is it sounds more fun.

Same with a disembodied consciousness. It appeals to my ego's desire for continuity. But where's the evidence?
Of course you won't find any evidence if the assumption being used excludes non-physical and supernatural causes in the first place. If you are only looking for physical stuff then thats all you will find. But just because you assume that there is nothing other than physical stuff doesnt mean that these other ideas don't exist if we take a more open view of all possible causes.
 
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Ophiolite

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I had planned a longer response, but the unicorns are whinnying and I need to go feed them.
 
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durangodawood

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What sort of evidence should I be looking for?
 
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Palmfever

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Science seeks to quantify Gods creation. It seeks knowledge of how things work.
Philosophy seeks wisdom.
As Hawking stated in his speech the begging of time, "we don't know what existed before the big bang."
The two are not opposed, they ask different questions, one asks how, the other why.
If science = knowledge
Wisdom is the correct application of said knowledge.
Sometimes we know the right option, yet choose the wrong one.
 
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Palmfever

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Scripture encourages us to seek both. Wisdom, and Knowledge.
Hosea 4:6. My people are being destroyed because because of a lack of knowledge. Since you priests refuse to know me, I refuse to recognize you as my priests. Since you have forgotten the laws of your God, I will forget to bless your children.
Proverbs 4:7. Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
 
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SelfSim

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If science = knowledge
.. then science must have an operational (testable) definition of 'knowledge', which won't involve any concept of 'truth'. Yet your '=' sign there, imposes it onto science's knowledge.
Both unstated, assumed premises of the implied syllogism behind that conditional 'If' (ie: the existence of truth and true knowledge), automatically renders 'science = knowledge' as being untestable by science, unless you can produce that operational definition of knowledge.

This demonstrates what you're actually saying in your prior statement:
The two are not opposed, they ask different questions, one asks how, the other why.
Your 'science = knowledge' condition, is therefore flawed and cannot be objectively demonstrated as being able to be met.

Wisdom is the correct application of said knowledge.
In science, this would amount to consistency. Correctness doesn't have much utility value in science.

Just sayin'.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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A scientific hypothesis has to be testable. All you have to do is provide a way to test for whatever you think causes consciousness.

If you don't know how non-physical causes can be found then how do you expect scientific experiments to test for them?

I think it's you making the assumptions - how do you know there are 'non-physical causes' if you don't know how to find them? How do you expect scientists to 'realise that the physical/material is not the only cause of reality' if there's no way to detect its influence? If there's no way to detect its influence how do you know it has an influence?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
I've explained that whatever can be observed, measured, and tested, i.e. has detectable influence in the world, is categorised as nature/natural, and its patterns of behaviour described by physics.

Unless you can provide a means of observing & measuring the influence of the 'supernatural' on the world (in which case it will be categorised as natural and described by physics), you're just whining that science can't do the impossible.

So, put up or shut up ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I don't know, what do other scientists do who step outside the physical view of things. Surely there are ways. I mean we know in other areas that there is more than one way to find truth so maybe this is where philsophy comes in.
So you're complaining that science won't consider something that you believe in but have no evidence for and don't know how to detect...

But if the science method is about methodological naturalism isn't that a metaphysical position because it is ruling out all other possible ways of seeing the world apart form naturalism.
No. The scientific method can only observe, measure, and test what is observable, measurable, and testable.

No. The scientific method can only observe, measure, and test what is observable, measurable, and testable.

Yes I agree science has no choice. That is what I have been saying when I say science method restricts things to the physical stuff.
It doesn't matter what label you give it, if it can be observed, measured, or tested, science can explore it.

The scientific method has no position. It is an empirical method for acquiring knowledge. Science is in the business of building testable models or explanations and making testable predictions.

If your hypotheses don't meet the minimum standard of testability, don't complain about science ignoring them.

What people and society feel about science doesn't change the fundamentals of science. All scientific claims are provisional. Read them with an implicit "Nature/reality behaves as if..." in front of the claim.

Like I said I don't know. Perhaps you could give some idea.
How am I supposed to know? If it has no detectable influence on the world why would I even think it exists?

All I know is if there is non-physical stuff and it has an effect on reality then wouldn’t science want to know.
If something has an effect on 'reality' then for the purposes of science it is physical, whether you want to call it supernatural, or mystical, or magic.

The fundamental physics of the everyday world at human scales is a regime that has been thoroughly explored, we know what it's made of (protons, neutrons, and electrons), we know the forces that are relevant (gravity and electromagnetism) and we have a model (quantum field theory) that explains every experiment that's been done.

It tells us that any new or unknown forces must be too short-range or too weak to be relevant or significant or we'd have discovered them, and any new or unknown particle that could be relevant or significant would have been made and detected in particle accelerators.

If you think there is something new or unknown that is significant or relevant at everyday human scales, the onus is on you to demonstrate it or provide the information to demonstrate it. So far, all you appear to have is an unsupported belief that there must be something else.

Wouldn’t it have an effect on the current and future scientific findings? wouldn't it skew things and give false findings. How do we know science is not explaining non-physical causes in physical terms and getting it wrong.
Because, by and large, it works.
 
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durangodawood

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....if your hypotheses don't meet the minimum standard of testability, don't complain about science ignoring them.
I think the heart of the complaint, tho perhaps unspoken, is that many sciencey people think science can give us a complete picture of reality. Or even just one that's complete enough to be satisfying.

I'm guessing tho.
 
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SelfSim

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I think the heart of the complaint, tho perhaps unspoken, is that many sciencey people think science can give us a complete picture of reality. Or even just one that's complete enough to be satisfying.
I agree .. and its a self-inflicted wound, where both the complainer and the other people there, refuse to accept the abundant objective evidence that their shared idea of reality being some absolute, fixed thing, which obviously exists 'out there', is evidently just a bogus belief!

All science is doing is distinguishing ideas which test out (or are verified) and designating those as what it means by objective reality.
If an idea isn't testable in the first place, it would be inconsistent to classify that along with the things which do test out, now wouldn't it?
 
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partinobodycular

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I think the heart of the complaint, tho perhaps unspoken, is that many sciencey people think science can give us a complete picture of reality.
No, the problem is that theists insist on inserting God into ever shrinking gaps. Back when the gaps were really wide it was easy for theists to find a place to insert God...find gap...insert God. But now as the gaps have gotten ever narrower the very narrowness of the gaps is pointed to as proof of God. When science couldn't explain it...it was evidence of God, when science can explain it...it's evidence of God.

Science can tell us exactly what the laws of physics are, but it can't tell us why...yet...and it's into that last narrow gap that the theists have found their latest opportunity to insert God.
 
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stevevw

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My point is the ideas you say science is destinguishing are assumed to only be certain ideas. The scientific method excludes anything supernatural as one of those possible ideas and thus is not really looking at all ideas as to what reality is. In the overall scheme of things as to what is reality we need to include all ideas, natural, supernatural or whatever. So science is not able to tell us the complete picture of what is reality. As the following paper makes a logical and reasoned aruement why methodological naturalism necessitates the adoption of metaphysical naturalism..

Should Methodological Naturalists Commit to Metaphysical Naturalism?
There is a consensus among philosophers about the importance of the role of causal factors in the explanation of events. But naturalism excludes the supernatural from explanations generally.

Methodological naturalism implies evidentialism, which obliges us to base the justification of our beliefs purely upon empirical evidence. And at the same time, since supernatural entities are causally isolated from the natural world, it is impossible for them to be reflected in the empirical evidence. As a result, someone who accepts methodological naturalism has to deny the existence of the supernatural and commit to metaphysical naturalism.

when a naturalistic methodology is used, the knowledge obtained will represent a naturalistic worldview. By analyzing the presuppositions of methodological naturalism, a methodological naturalist is rationally entitled to accept metaphysical naturalism. Without acceptance of metaphysical naturalism, methodological naturalism fails to be a credible methodology.


The core of this argument is the recognition that the causal closure principle is the link between methodological and metaphysical naturalism: for this principle at once assumes the causal isolation of the natural world, compels us to adopt a naturalistic methodology for discovering the world, and discredits our beliefs about the supernatural.
Should Methodological Naturalists Commit to Metaphysical Naturalism? - Journal for General Philosophy of Science






 
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stevevw

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I think the heart of the complaint, tho perhaps unspoken, is that many sciencey people think science can give us a complete picture of reality. Or even just one that's complete enough to be satisfying.

I'm guessing tho.
Yes that is the point. Its inherent in what is ruled in and out of what is being looked for. Thats a metaphysical position and not just a purely methodological one. The appraoch says we must excclude the supernatural and only search for physical stuff. That is determined before the method even begins to look. Thats a position as you say implicit that science is claiming they know what reality is.
 
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SelfSim

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Science distinguishes Objective Reality, by following the scientific method.

You are distinguishing Mind Dependent Reality, by following the method of belief.

Those two above statements are supported by the abundant evidence generated by an objectively testable hypothesis.

Both methods are executed by human minds .. which is all inclusive .. nothing is left out.
End of story.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I think the heart of the complaint, tho perhaps unspoken, is that many sciencey people think science can give us a complete picture of reality. Or even just one that's complete enough to be satisfying.

I'm guessing tho.
You may be right. My first response would be to ask for a definition of 'reality' or 'real'. If there is a claim of some influence that is significant and relevant to us, yet it has no detectable influence in the world, the claim, prima-facie, is questionable. In what sense can it be considered 'real'?

Given the long history of failed claims of this type, suggesting a human predisposition to imagining fantastical agency, the most obvious and likely explanation is that it is just imagination at work, wishful thinking.

However complete the explanations and models of our observations science might provide, some people will feel the need to invoke magical, superstitious, and supernatural influences.
 
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stevevw

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Actually I have been studying this topic for a while as well. I came across some good arguemnets that actually support the idea that metaphysical naturalism is a logical position to take under methological naturalism.

If one takes up the methodological position they must exclude anything non-physical or supernatural. It is not permitted as allowing this means allowing supernatural as a possible cause and explanation. But as the scientific method is based on evidentialism it is equating what someone believes with evidence and verification. Along with naturalism (only being about physical stuff) it is saying that only the physical will be included in those explanations and that the physical is what makes up reality.

So this position goes beyond the mere method as a tool and has attached an ontological claim and a epistemic position about how we have to explore, verify and understand reality. Thus this is also taking a metaphysical position as it supposes that reality/naturalistic causes are only physical and material.

So check out this paper and let me know what you think.

Methodological naturalism is based on the presupposition of causal isolation of the natural and the supernatural worlds. Methodological naturalism implies that only propositions supported by empirical evidence are reliable. The methodological naturalist is committed to the claim that the scientific beliefs which constitute their scientific knowledge have been justified by their perceptual beliefs and their entailments.

So the epistemological implications of methodological naturalism lead us to a version of “Evidentialism”, according to which the epistemic justification of a belief is determined by the quality of evidence that the believer has for that belief (Feldman and Conee 1985, 15).

From this point of view, being epistemically obligatory is equal to being epistemically justified (ibid., 19); and, conversely, just as relevant evidence obliges us to believe a proposition, the non-existence of any evidence compels us to deny that proposition.

Thus, evidentialism and naturalism excludes revelation and religious experience in justifying our beliefs, and admits only sense perception as the source of evidence; so it can be viewed as an expression of the epistemic basis of methodological naturalism.

“Naturalism rules out the possibility of recognizing any supernatural and non-physical cause has anything to do with the natural order of things. Hence, someone who accepts methodological naturalism has no option but to deny the existence of the sorts of supernatural entities. This worldview is exactly what at the outset we called “metaphysical naturalism”.


Methodological naturalism is the only reliable and also the most successful methodology for discovering the realities of the world; and scientific knowledge obtained using methodological naturalism expresses a naturalistic picture of the world, which among the different worldviews exclusively confirms metaphysical naturalism.
Should Methodological Naturalists Commit to Metaphysical Naturalism? - Journal for General Philosophy of Science
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Ok. I'll read through the journal article and get back to you in a few days. Just from the get go, I'm going to guess that these authors end up confounding and/or committing reification upon a few definitions in order to "prove" their thesis. But......I'll have to read their arguments first.
 
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durangodawood

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....If an idea isn't testable in the first place, it would be inconsistent to classify that along with the things which do test out, now wouldn't it?
Sure, you wouldnt call both "ideas about objective reality". But bump up a level and you could call them both "ideas about reality".
 
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durangodawood

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This discussion doesn't have to be about the creator-person God of the Bible. I was thinking more in terms of any proposed "greater" order into which our material-objective subset of reality could fit.
 
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durangodawood

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Perhaps this is a good time to ask again: what should I be looking for if I seek to find a reality that includes more than the materialist one?
 
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