Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?

[Yahudim]

OK folks. I wanted to offer a few more choices than other salvation polls. I think we can all agree that Y'shua is the Word and that John, having no other Word than Torah, meant Y'shua is Torah or at least Tanakh which includes Torah. For the purpose of this poll, when we say Torah, we also mean the Word made flesh. So:

Is salvation thru Torah Obedience, Faith and Grace?
Is salvation thru Torah Obedience alone?
Is salvation thru Faith and Grace alone?
Is salvation thru Faith alone?
Is salvation thru Grace alone?
Is salvation thru none of the above?

This is a POLL based on defined terms. If you do not find a choice that fits your beliefs then choose the last option, 'none of the above' and if you so choose, explain your choice. Please do not debate the answers that are given in support of a participants choice. Please do not debate the definitions of terms used in this poll. If you have different definitions than these offered, then feel free to include them in your post. Please keep your posts on topic and brief.

The terms used in this poll are to be defined as follows for the purpose of this thread:

Salvation: Salvation is deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.
Torah Observance: Following the instruction of the Mosaic Law as found in the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures, as expounded on by the Messiah Y'shua and as it applies in context to the individual believer.
Faith:Faith is both the substance of things hoped for and the evidence that things exist that are not yet perceived with the senses.
Grace:Grace in this context is the 'chesed' that is extended by our Father in heaven toward His children. It is defined for the sake of this thread as the redemption of Israel, the preservation of life and resurrection from death, the quickening of the spirit, the redemption from sin and the keeping of covenants made with man and Himself for the redemption of man and His Creation.
​

Feel free to expand on your beliefs in a way that supports your choice. Please do so in a way that does not directly violate the Christian Forums Community Rules or the Statement of Purpose for this Faith Group.

 

[Yahudim]

PS. Obviously this thread will have no bearing on the new rules, sub forums, etc. (at least for the next 90 days). This is just for us Messianics to express ourselves.

Enjoy!

 

[yedida]

Rev 20:11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh'ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Sh'ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:22 I saw no Temple in the city, for Adonai, God of heaven's armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 The city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God's Sh'khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
Rev 21:25 Its gates will never close, they stay open all day because night will not exist there,
Rev 21:26 and the honor and splendor of the nations will be brought into it.
Rev 21:27 Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Rev 22:14 How blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they have the right to eat from the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city!
Rev 22:15 Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I see 3 groups of people in these 3 passages: those destroyed, those saved alive from the lake of fire but barred from entering the City, and those saved alive to enter and live in that great City.
By my pov I would say at this moment option #1.
What is your pov on these passages? I see the second group as those within the "great gnashing of teeth and great turmoil (or darkness)." (An answer to Mt. 5:19 maybe?) Although one of my rabbis says that the interpretation that we have as written "will be called...." should be translated as "will be called greatest by the least and will be called least by the greatest" or something to that effect.

Still pondering on #1 or #3..... Torah observance isn't in and of itself salvific but it does tie into one's salvation......hmmmm......

 

[Yahudim]

Rev 20:11 Next I saw a great white throne and the One sitting on it. Earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, both great and small, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened; and another book was opened, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged from what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead in it; and Death and Sh'ol gave up the dead in them; and they were judged, each according to what he had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Sh'ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the Book of Life was hurled into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:22 I saw no Temple in the city, for Adonai, God of heaven's armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 The city has no need for the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God's Sh'khinah gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it.
Rev 21:25 Its gates will never close, they stay open all day because night will not exist there,
Rev 21:26 and the honor and splendor of the nations will be brought into it.
Rev 21:27 Nothing impure may enter it, nor anyone who does shameful things or lies; the only ones who may enter are those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Rev 22:14 How blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they have the right to eat from the Tree of Life and go through the gates into the city!
Rev 22:15 Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

I see 3 groups of people in these 3 passages: those destroyed, those saved alive from the lake of fire but barred from entering the City, and those saved alive to enter and live in that great City.
By my pov I would say at this moment option #1.
What is your pov on these passages? I see the second group as those within the "great gnashing of teeth and great turmoil (or darkness)." (An answer to Mt. 5:19 maybe?) Although one of my rabbis says that the interpretation that we have as written "will be called...." should be translated as "will be called greatest by the least and will be called least by the greatest" or something to that effect.

Still pondering on #1 or #3..... Torah observance isn't in and of itself salvific but it does tie into one's salvation......hmmmm......

Hey There! Our first undecided. This IS exciting!

BTW, I'm a #1.

Interesting translation. Interesting thoughts. I'll have to dwell on this a bit.

 

[GuardianShua]

Scripture says that God does away with the unrighteous. That being true means that those people were not saved by God's grace.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Yahudim]

Scripture says that God does away with the unrighteous. That being true means that those people were not saved by God's grace.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Avodat]

The poll on here allows only obedience to Torah - which is a great one to include! However, I really want to say that it is through obedience, as such, to ALL G_d's word in The Book. I cannot see why Torah is being seperated out - can we be disobedient to everything else in G_d's word? Is this what Messianics sign up to?

If we are obedient to ALL G_d's word that would include Torah and other parts of G_d's teachings, though, as with Torah, there are parts of The Book that others will not accept / agree with / recognise as achievable.

So, my question is: Why must we ONLY be obedient to Torah and how do we achieve that, given that some of the parts we cannot now carry out? Given that situation which parts does this 'obedience' relate to?

I cannot vote in this poll because here I would have to say 'none of the above' only because of the unfortunate exclusion of the whole of the rest of The Book.

 

[visionary]

I think that what "grace alone" miss understand, is that obedience is evidence of faith in Him and His grace... You can not take advantage of God and His good graces.. and expect to live.

 

[yedida]

I like what someone here explained about the term "faith." That the term more often should have been translated faithful. When you think of it as that, then faith in or belief in something is basically worthless, meaningless; but you think of faithful....faithful to what/whom and how can one be faithful? What is involved in faithfulness? For one thing, it's an act of doing and of being. t's active, not passive, a lot more than just one's mind must become involved.
A lot more than "faith," I'd say. Just thinking out loud.

 

[Avodat]

I think that what "grace alone" miss understand, is that obedience is evidence of faith in Him and His grace... You can not take advantage of God and His good graces.. and expect to live.

So we need just one item to vote on: obedience to the whole of G_d's word. We don't need to divide it up between Torah and not Torah - just obedience. Choose life, as Moses said!

I'll vote for that!

 

[visionary]

I like what someone here explained about the term "faith." That the term more often should have been translated faithful. When you think of it as that, then faith in or belief in something is basically worthless, meaningless; but you think of faithful....faithful to what/whom and how can one be faithful? What is involved in faithfulness? For one thing, it's an act of doing and of being. t's active, not passive, a lot more than just one's mind must become involved.
A lot more than "faith," I'd say. Just thinking out loud.

Dogs are a great example of faithful. They look up with adoration in their eyes, watching every move of their master, sensing any changes in stance when a stranger approaches, obey their master without question, and are always there at the master's beck and call.

 

[Avodat]

Dogs are a great example of faithful. They look up with adoration in their eyes, watching every move of their master, sensing any changes in stance when a stranger approaches, obey their master without question, and are always there at the master's beck and call.

ROFL - you've not met my dog!

 

[visionary]

ROFL - you've not met my dog!

ok .. it isn't a perfect example

 

[Henaynei]

I'm a number "last one."
Salvation is By Faith, Through Grace as evidenced by Obedience (called "works") by Yaakov.
"Show me your faith without works, I'll show my faith by my works." "... faith without works is dead..."

 

[Yahudim]

The poll on here allows only obedience to Torah - which is a great one to include! However, I really want to say that it is through obedience, as such, to ALL G_d's word in The Book. I cannot see why Torah is being seperated out - can we be disobedient to everything else in G_d's word? Is this what Messianics sign up to?

If we are obedient to ALL G_d's word that would include Torah and other parts of G_d's teachings, though, as with Torah, there are parts of The Book that others will not accept / agree with / recognise as achievable.

So, my question is: Why must we ONLY be obedient to Torah and how do we achieve that, given that some of the parts we cannot now carry out? Given that situation which parts does this 'obedience' relate to?

I cannot vote in this poll because here I would have to say 'none of the above' only because of the unfortunate exclusion of the whole of the rest of The Book.

Sorry Brother,

This is unfortunate. But from my perspective, there is the whole 'not adding to or taking away' thing about Torah. If you feel that there are additional instructions in the Prophets, Writings, etc., that are required, then by all means choose 'none of the above' and explain your choice like Henaynei did. Is that OK?

I tried to cover all the bases. But if we start with which books to include or exclude, I'd still be writing choices to that darn poll and it only allows for ten.

 

[Yahudim]

ROFL - you've not met my dog!

Obviously she hasn't met the one I sit for. If you ever want a lesson in humility try ordering someone else's dog around.

 

[Lulav]

The poll on here allows only obedience to Torah - which is a great one to include! However, I really want to say that it is through obedience, as such, to ALL G_d's word in The Book. I cannot see why Torah is being seperated out - can we be disobedient to everything else in G_d's word? Is this what Messianics sign up to?

If we are obedient to ALL G_d's word that would include Torah and other parts of G_d's teachings, though, as with Torah, there are parts of The Book that others will not accept / agree with / recognise as achievable.

So, my question is: Why must we ONLY be obedient to Torah and how do we achieve that, given that some of the parts we cannot now carry out? Given that situation which parts does this 'obedience' relate to?

I cannot vote in this poll because here I would have to say 'none of the above' only because of the unfortunate exclusion of the whole of the rest of The Book.

Because it's the standard, the foundation that everything should be held up to. All other writings (except for like Job, Esther, Jonah, etc) are speaking of separating from Torah and bringing His people back to it. If anything deviates from this, it deviates from why HaShem told Moses to write what he wrote.

 

[Avodat]

Because it's the standard, the foundation that everything should be held up to. All other writings (except for like Job, Esther, Jonah, etc) are speaking of separating from Torah and bringing His people back to it. If anything deviates from this, it deviates from why HaShem told Moses to write what he wrote.

Do we not have to obey all G_d's teachings? If not, which can we miss out, please? And what about the parts of Torah that we cannot be obedient to?

 

[visionary]

Do we not have to obey all G_d's teachings? If not, which can we miss out, please?

I would start with the thus saith the Lord.. written on stone.. those written on parchment came when Moses went back up Mount Sinai to see if an atonement could be made.. and came down with the details of atonement written out.. the process for sin violations, temple sevices, priest duties, military and camp procedures, the mo'edim.. plus some dietary advice.. etc.. These written on parchment play a different role than that which is written on stone and spoken by God Himself. They define the process, they explain how the temple is to be laid out, temple service, and priest roles were to be carried out along with their responsibilities, who was in charge of the different areas, and when to perform certain mo'edims.

The Book of Hebrews explains how a lot of things found in the parchments have been transferred to the Heavenly Temple where Moses made a copy from. There are things which we can continue to do, because they do not involve a temple, priest, etc. Those things we are to look up and see Yeshua continuing in the work as our High Priest.

Other things like dietary issues, mo'edims, have not changed. Dietary issues are still the same and just as good advice as they were the day when God gave them. Mo'edims are the "shadow of things to come" as Paul said.. so it would be wise to be rehearsing them, for one day they will have their reality just like the spring time feasts had theirs with the first coming of our Messiah..

 

[Yahudim]

I would start with the thus saith the Lord.. written on stone.. those written on parchment came when Moses went back up Mount Sinai to see if an atonement could be made.. and came down with the details of atonement written out.. the process for sin violations, temple sevices, priest duties, military and camp procedures, the mo'edim.. plus some dietary advice.. etc.. These written on parchment play a different role than that which is written on stone and spoken by God Himself. They define the process, they explain how the temple is to be laid out, temple service, and priest roles were to be carried out along with their responsibilities, who was in charge of the different areas, and when to perform certain mo'edims.

The Book of Hebrews explains how a lot of things found in the parchments have been transferred to the Heavenly Temple where Moses made a copy from. There are things which we can continue to do, because they do not involve a temple, priest, etc. Those things we are to look up and see Yeshua continuing in the work as our High Priest.

Other things like dietary issues, mo'edims, have not changed. Dietary issues are still the same and just as good advice as they were the day when God gave them. Mo'edims are the "shadow of things to come" as Paul said.. so it would be wise to be rehearsing them, for one day they will have their reality just like the spring time feasts had theirs with the first coming of our Messiah..

Yup!