Is Salvation instantenous or is it a process?

[Steeno7]

How do you know that?
Can you help me with verses?

When James says, “I will show "you" my faith.” The “you” there is other men. Specifically other men who claimed saving faith and yet exhibited none of the fruit of Christ that accompanies such faith.

Whereas Paul is speaking of justification before God, in Gods eyes - which is through faith in Jesus Christ, and not through any works on mans part. Paul too supports His assertion by using Abraham. Who he declares may have been justified by his works, BUT NOT before God. Who does that leave to be justified by works before then? Others. Just as James asserted. There is no contradiction between Paul and James. Same Abraham, same faith, same works, but two different points being made.

 

[abacabb3]

Let's consider it by way of analogy.

Is marriage an event, or a process?

This is a phenomenal point, as it is clear that we are in union with Christ and the Scripture always uses different tenses as it pertains to justification, leads me to believe that it is not the cut and dry "once and for all process" that many Protestants like to believe. Yes, that is a simpler explanation, but the secret things of God, such as exactly how the whole process of imputation even works are sort of mysterious.

For all practical purposes, because God promises that He will lose none that have placed faith in Christ, salvation is an instant event as God does not waste His time saving and unsaving the same person every few moments. However, being that Scripture warns against falling away and asks that we work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yet confidence, it is wise to have humility and know that Christ saves to the utmost.

 

[stan1953]

Abrahams believed God and his faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Abraham believes Sarah would bear a child. She did. Isaac was born. When Isaac became a "young man" (at least 12) Abraham's faith was tested and after he passed the test Abraham was justified ... 12(?) years later. Is salvation instantaneous or is it a process?
Some say the process starts way before we even realize there is God.

A moment in time that turns into a lifetime. Salvation takes one instant to confess and recognize who Jesus is based on Rom 10:9-13, but it then becomes a daily walk where we pick up our cross and follow. James talks about our walk, and Paul talks about our conversion. Both involve faith, but one is salvic and the other is perseverance.

 

[Edial]

A moment in time that turns into a lifetime. Salvation takes one instant to confess and recognize who Jesus is based on Rom 10:9-13, but it then becomes a daily walk where we pick up our cross and follow. James talks about our walk, and Paul talks about our conversion. Both involve faith, but one is salvic and the other is perseverance.

But doesn't James say that Abraham was justified by what he did?
He used the word "justified".

And when Abraham first believed, the text said it was 'credited' to him as righteousness.
'Credited' as if it is on a paper, but the money are not withdrawn yet.
Not justified yet.

The Romans 10 says one will be saved. (And I fully believe one will be saved at one time or another if one's confession is sincere). The Romans 10 text does not say however, one is saved the moment the confession leaves the lips.

If you say salvation is instantaneous wouldn't the following make better sense?

1. Initial belief
2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ)
3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do)
Once he obeys, does things just because the Bible tell him to, then he is justified, saved.

Salvation process however starts from a moment he first believes (in my personal opinion it actually starts from a moment God starts drawing him, but that's my personal view), then he starts walking in the light of this new revelation, and once he obeys then he is justified - the point of salvation you are talking about.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Steeno7]

But doesn't James say that Abraham was justified by what he did?
He used the word "justified".

And when Abraham first believed, the text said it was 'credited' to him as righteousness.
'Credited' as if it is on a paper, but the money are not withdrawn yet.
Not justified yet.

The Romans 10 says one will be saved. (And I fully believe one will be saved at one time or another if one's confession is sincere). The Romans 10 text does not say however, one is saved the moment the confession leaves the lips.

If you say salvation is instantaneous wouldn't the following make better sense?

1. Initial belief
2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ)
3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do)
Once he obeys, does things just because the Bible tell him to, then he is justified, saved.

Salvation process however starts from a moment he first believes (in my personal opinion it actually starts from a moment God starts drawing him, but that's my personal view), then he starts walking in the light of this new revelation, and once he obeys then he is justified - the point of salvation you are talking about.

Does this make sense?

Thanks,
Ed

Nope.

 

[Edial]

Nope.

That's one way of putting it.
Which part?

 

[Steeno7]

That's one way of putting it.
Which part?

All of it.

 

[extraordinary]

However, being that Scripture warns against falling away and asks that we work out our salvation with
fear and trembling, yet confidence, it is wise to have humility and know that Christ saves to the utmost.

Aaaaah, this is the reason for all of the many dozens of conditional warnings written to the churches!
Thanks for enlightening us.
.

 

[abacabb3]

Aaaaah, this is the reason for all of the many dozens of conditional warnings written to the churches!
Thanks for enlightening us.
.

Reason for the attitude?

 

[DeaconDean]

Aaaaah, this is the reason for all of the many dozens of conditional warnings written to the churches!
Thanks for enlightening us.
.

So please enlighten me as to what sin(s) or what person is more powerful than God?

Did not Jesus say that our care, after salvation, is on God?

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -John 10:28-29 (KJV)

So what or who is more powerful than God so as to take us/me out of His hand?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Edial]

So please enlighten me as to what sin(s) or what person is more powerful than God?

Did not Jesus say that our care, after salvation, is on God?

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -John 10:28-29 (KJV)

So what or who is more powerful than God so as to take us/me out of His hand?

God Bless

Till all are one.

God is more powerful.

But let's look at the verse preceding it.

JN 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

This is addressed to the obedient believers - the ones that follow Him.
Eternal life is given to them and they (the ones that follow) can never lose it.

The Bible is also packed with warning to the believers who do not follow Him.

How would you address that?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Ignatius21]

But doesn't James say that Abraham was justified by what he did? He used the word "justified". And when Abraham first believed, the text said it was 'credited' to him as righteousness. 'Credited' as if it is on a paper, but the money are not withdrawn yet. Not justified yet. The Romans 10 says one will be saved. (And I fully believe one will be saved at one time or another if one's confession is sincere). The Romans 10 text does not say however, one is saved the moment the confession leaves the lips. If you say salvation is instantaneous wouldn't the following make better sense? 1. Initial belief 2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ) 3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do) Once he obeys, does things just because the Bible tell him to, then he is justified, saved. Salvation process however starts from a moment he first believes (in my personal opinion it actually starts from a moment God starts drawing him, but that's my personal view), then he starts walking in the light of this new revelation, and once he obeys then he is justified - the point of salvation you are talking about. Does this make sense? Thanks, Ed

I think it makes sense. A lot depends on how we define terms.

From what I've read in a variety of Church Fathers--and what I can glean from secondary sources who've investigated far more thoroughly--the idea of justification in Christian thought, was not nearly so static as it came to be seen in the Reformation-Counter Reformation times. "Justified," "sanctified," "regenerated," "saved," etc. seem to have been somewhat interchangeable. Baptismal rites spoke of "the regeneration of baptism," but also of baptism "sanctifying" us and "justifying" us. In the Orthodox baptismal rite, prayers like these show that the langauge can be somewhat fluid:

Blessed are You, Lord God Almighty, Fountain of Blessings, Sun of Righteousness, Who made to shine forth for those in darkness a light of salvation through the manifestation of Your Only-Begotten Son and our God, granting unto us, though we are unworthy, blessed cleansing in Holy Water, and divine sanctification in the Life; effecting Anointing; Who now also has been well-pleased to regenerate this Your servant newly illuminated through Water and Spirit, giving him (her) forgiveness of his (her) voluntary and involuntary sins: do You Yourself, Sovereign Master, Compassionate King of All, bestow upon him (her) also the Seal of Your omnipotent and adorable Holy Spirit, and the Communion of the Holy Body and Most Precious Blood of Your Christ; keep him (her) in Your sanctification; confirm him (her) in the Orthodox Faith; deliver him (her) from the Evil One and all his devices; preserve his (her) soul, through Your saving fear, in purity and righteousness, that in every work and word, being acceptable before You, he (she) may become a child and heir of Your heavenly Kingdom.

Multiple terms are used here...and the prayer is both for the present (instantaneous) and the future (the process).

Again I go to the analogy of marriage. Let's recast your 4-point list in those terms.

1. Initial belief -> Making the vows, having the objective status of "marriage" conferred upon you
2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ) -> Continues loving (does the everyday things out of love for one's spouse)
3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do) -> Serves (starts changing diapers and doing other things he would not normally do)
What is the point of origin? Marriage. What is the ultimate end goal? Well...marriage. Is he more married after 50 years than he was at the altar? Well, no. But yes. But no. But...it depends on your perspective. Objectively, he's as married on Day 1 as on his 50th anniversary. Subjectively, he's hopefully far more married than before, because the union has deepened and grown.

In salvation, we are justified when we first enter into a saving union with Christ. But yet, we are not justified until the last judgment. Is there room for nuance? I don't see why not. Objectively, we are justified (declared "right with God") and sanctified (declared "holy"). Subjectively, we become more right with God and ever more holy.

I don't think James was speaking only of "justification before men." I think you've pointed out his use of the terms. Paul speaks of Abraham's justification when he believed God. James speaks of his justification when his faith was perfected in works. In the marriage analogy, perhaps Paul was speaking of Abraham's wedding day, while James was speaking of his 30th anniversary. It sounds like a cheesy example, but I think it gets the point across.

 

[stan1953]

But doesn't James say that Abraham was justified by what he did?
He used the word "justified".
And when Abraham first believed, the text said it was 'credited' to him as righteousness.
'Credited' as if it is on a paper, but the money are not withdrawn yet.
Not justified yet.

Yes they both said this. It was still instantaneous, but of course could not be withdrawn at his death because the Savior was yet to come. This was a common quote in the NT to show that Abraham was part of the body of believers. IMO it also gave them comfort in it's continuity.

The Romans 10 says one will be saved. (And I fully believe one will be saved at one time or another if one's confession is sincere). The Romans 10 text does not say however, one is saved the moment the confession leaves the lips.

Yes the difference between 9 and 10 is direction vs confirmation. Pre vs post.

If you say salvation is instantaneous wouldn't the following make better sense?
1. Initial belief
2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ)
3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do)
Once he obeys, does things just because the Bible tell him to, then he is justified, saved.
Salvation process however starts from a moment he first believes (in my personal opinion it actually starts from a moment God starts drawing him, but that's my personal view), then he starts walking in the light of this new revelation, and once he obeys then he is justified - the point of salvation you are talking about.
Does this make sense?

You do present a viable process, but it's not the salvation process. BTW you omitted baptism in the above.
Paul teaches in Rom 8:29-30 what God does as far as a process is concerned.
For those God foreknew
he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
And those he predestined, he also called;
those he called, he also justified;
those he justified, he also glorified.

As Paul is speaking in the past tense here, it seems clear to me that this is a simultaneous event that starts at conversion/salvation.

 

[Edial]

I think it makes sense. A lot depends on how we define terms.
From what I've read in a variety of Church Fathers--and what I can glean from secondary sources who've investigated far more thoroughly--the idea of justification in Christian thought, was not nearly so static as it came to be seen in the Reformation-Counter Reformation times. "Justified," "sanctified," "regenerated," "saved," etc. seem to have been somewhat interchangeable. Baptismal rites spoke of "the regeneration of baptism," but also of baptism "sanctifying" us and "justifying" us. In the Orthodox baptismal rite, prayers like these show that the langauge can be somewhat fluid:
Blessed are You, Lord God Almighty, Fountain of Blessings, Sun of Righteousness, Who made to shine forth for those in darkness a light of salvation through the manifestation of Your Only-Begotten Son and our God, granting unto us, though we are unworthy, blessed cleansing in Holy Water, and divine sanctification in the Life; effecting Anointing; Who now also has been well-pleased to regenerate this Your servant newly illuminated through Water and Spirit, giving him (her) forgiveness of his (her) voluntary and involuntary sins: do You Yourself, Sovereign Master, Compassionate King of All, bestow upon him (her) also the Seal of Your omnipotent and adorable Holy Spirit, and the Communion of the Holy Body and Most Precious Blood of Your Christ; keep him (her) in Your sanctification; confirm him (her) in the Orthodox Faith; deliver him (her) from the Evil One and all his devices; preserve his (her) soul, through Your saving fear, in purity and righteousness, that in every work and word, being acceptable before You, he (she) may become a child and heir of Your heavenly Kingdom.

In my opinion, definition of terms is what causes much of the misunderstanding.
Although many of the terms are interchangeable, in some contexts in the Bible they carry unique understanding.

Not all the gravies have the same flavor nor application.
Sure, I could use chicken gravy on a steak ... and I have ... but it is not the same as using a proper sauce for proper meat.

I probably would refer most of the division in Christendom on the doctrine of salvation to a sloppy application of these interchangeable definitions.

We are diluting them by making them synonymous in every case instead of making certain we do not throw the baby out with bathwater by ignoring the unique value of each term.

Like ... most of the readers have no idea which definition of 'love' in the English Bible is 'agape' and which is 'phileo'.
But Eddie, this is a lot of work!

My goodness, we have computers now, let's dig in to the text and get to work instead of taking everything for granted.

For example.

1CO 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord--a curse be on him. Come, O Lord!
​

Strong verse!
So (after the initial shudder) we get theological and recite doctrines about loving God with all your heart, soul and mind ...

But wait a minute ... 'love' in this text is 'phileo'. :o
It means brotherly, human love.
This means that unless we get off our high horse and love Jesus ALSO as a human being, a brother, a relative - we are under a curse despite of our knowledge.

Multiple terms are used here...and the prayer is both for the present (instantaneous) and the future (the process).

Again I go to the analogy of marriage. Let's recast your 4-point list in those terms.

1. Initial belief -> Making the vows, having the objective status of "marriage" conferred upon you
2. Continues believing (does the everyday things in the light of Christ) -> Continues loving (does the everyday things out of love for one's spouse)
3. Obeys (starts applying teachings he would not normally do) -> Serves (starts changing diapers and doing other things he would not normally do)
What is the point of origin? Marriage. What is the ultimate end goal? Well...marriage. Is he more married after 50 years than he was at the altar? Well, no. But yes. But no. But...it depends on your perspective. Objectively, he's as married on Day 1 as on his 50th anniversary. Subjectively, he's hopefully far more married than before, because the union has deepened and grown.

Yes, we agree that salvation is progressive and it is the work of God.
And we grow in salvation.
And changing diapers ... is certainly a great analogy for obedience.

I also agree with the marriage analogy, but not completely.
Here is why.

I believe God started working on us from the point of our infant baptism.
Baptism is a form of grace. The Bible plainly teaches there is nothing symbolic in Baptism. When the water and the word unite - things happen.
I cannot fully explain what exactly happens, but when the Natural water unite with the Supernatural word - things definitely happen.

In the case of Protestants who do not baptize their children, they dedicate.
It is not the same, but the Lord works in His timing, so who am I to judge.

I cannot fully see the analogy of Marriage concerning salvation because the Lord started saving us even before we realize He is with us.

For example, in case of Israel, Ezekiel 16, He started salvation before Israel matured ...

EZE 16:6 " `Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood I said to you, "Live!" 7 I made you grow like a plant of the field. You grew up and developed and became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew, you who were naked and bare.
​

Later on, the Lord passed by again and then married her.

EZE 16:8 " `Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your nakedness. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign LORD, and you became mine.
​

Then, when she became an adulteress and a prostitute, He gave her a certificate of divorce ...

JER 3:6 ..."Have you seen what faithless Israel has done? She has gone up on every high hill and under every spreading tree and has committed adultery there. 7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it. 8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries.
​

Marriage starts when the two are in agreement to marry.
Salvation however, in my opinion, starts with God initiating it.

In salvation, we are justified when we first enter into a saving union with Christ. But yet, we are not justified until the last judgment. Is there room for nuance? I don't see why not. Objectively, we are justified (declared "right with God") and sanctified (declared "holy"). Subjectively, we become more right with God and ever more holy.

I think the Bible stresses the subjective part of the salvation ... cannot avoid that pesky doctrine of obedience ... and we are often stressing the objective parts ... well, because it is much easier than obedience ...
Loving my neighbor? :o:o ... my goodness, I do not even love my poster.

I don't think James was speaking only of "justification before men." I think you've pointed out his use of the terms. Paul speaks of Abraham's justification when he believed God. James speaks of his justification when his faith was perfected in works. In the marriage analogy, perhaps Paul was speaking of Abraham's wedding day, while James was speaking of his 30th anniversary. It sounds like a cheesy example, but I think it gets the point across.

30th anniversary is a great analogy of faith perfected in works.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DeaconDean]

God is more powerful.

But let's look at the verse preceding it.

JN 10:27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

This is addressed to the obedient believers - the ones that follow Him.
Eternal life is given to them and they (the ones that follow) can never lose it.

The Bible is also packed with warning to the believers who do not follow Him.

How would you address that?

Thanks,
Ed

Does Jesus also not say in the same context that after salvation, He turns them (believers) over into God's hands and that no man can take them from His hand?

If a believer, or if sin could take themselves, or if sin could take you out of the Father's hand, you and/or sin is omnipotent.

How do you address that?

So again, who is omnipotent:

Sin, so that it can you out of the Father's hand?

Man, who through his own means, takes himself out of God's hand.

Or God, who no man, not even myself can me out of His hand?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Edial]

Yes they both said this. It was still instantaneous, but of course could not be withdrawn at his death because the Savior was yet to come. This was a common quote in the NT to show that Abraham was part of the body of believers. IMO it also gave them comfort in it's continuity.

Yet the example of Abraham was taken to apply to us today, by actually saying that one is justified when s/he applies that what s/he believes.
If one has only faith, it appears it is credited to him as righteousness.
Credit however, is not justification, not a seal.

The seal is when you actually step on that tightrope instead of saying ... Lord, I believe you would catch me if I fall off the tightrope.

JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
​

You do present a viable process, but it's not the salvation process. BTW you omitted baptism in the above.
Paul teaches in Rom 8:29-30 what God does as far as a process is concerned.
For those God foreknew
he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
And those he predestined, he also called;
those he called, he also justified;
those he justified, he also glorified.

As Paul is speaking in the past tense here, it seems clear to me that this is a simultaneous event that starts at conversion/salvation.

But this is God ... He has no time.
Time was created for our sake.

To us the Bible stretches that what is simultaneous to God throughout our lifetime.

And it appears to me, from what I have looked at so far that the point of salvation (meaning justification, after which salvation cannot be 'lost') is when we actually obey the Bible in the context of the 2 Commandments.
Loving my neighbor AS myself (key word being AS) and Loving God with all my heart, soul, mind (key word being Love as in Obey).

In my opinion we should avoid covering up the practical Christianity with theological.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Edial]

Does Jesus also not say in the same context that after salvation, He turns them (believers) over into God's hands and that no man can take them from His hand?

If a believer, or if sin could take themselves, or if sin could take you out of the Father's hand, you and/or sin is omnipotent.

How do you address that?

So again, who is omnipotent:

Sin, so that it can you out of the Father's hand?

Man, who through his own means, takes himself out of God's hand.

Or God, who no man, not even myself can me out of His hand?

God Bless

Till all are one.

But I never disagreed with all that.

All I said (quoted) that a definition of a believer, a sheep, is the one who follows Christ.
These are the ones (according to the text) who would never be snatched away.

I also said that the Bible is packed with warnings to the disobedient believers who refuse following Christ in the context of obedience to God and love to my neighbor.

 

[extraordinary]

... the Bible is packed with warnings to the disobedient believers who refuse following Christ
in the context of obedience to God and love to my neighbor.

You and I understand this, but the churches are filled with "believers" who do not.
.

 

[DeaconDean]

But I never disagreed with all that.

All I said (quoted) that a definition of a believer, a sheep, is the one who follows Christ.
These are the ones (according to the text) who would never be snatched away.

I also said that the Bible is packed with warnings to the disobedient believers who refuse following Christ in the context of obedience to God and love to my neighbor.

Paul said:

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:" -Rom. 9:6 (KJV)

Not all who say they are believers are believers.

So when, when the prodigal son was living a riotious life, did he cease to be his father's son?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[stan1953]

Yet the example of Abraham was taken to apply to us today, by actually saying that one is justified when s/he applies that what s/he believes.
If one has only faith, it appears it is credited to him as righteousness.
Credit however, is not justification, not a seal.

Actually it was meant to comfort those who thought their fathers and the prophets would not receive the Messiah. James taught their faith/belief in what God promised is what kept them.

The seal is when you actually step on that tightrope instead of saying ... Lord, I believe you would catch me if I fall off the tightrope.

JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
​

The seal is the Holy Spirit that we are baptised with AFTER salvation.

But this is God ... He has no time.
Time was created for our sake.
To us the Bible stretches that what is simultaneous to God throughout our lifetime.
And it appears to me, from what I have looked at so far that the point of salvation (meaning justification, after which salvation cannot be 'lost') is when we actually obey the Bible in the context of the 2 Commandments.
Loving my neighbor AS myself (key word being AS) and Loving God with all my heart, soul, mind (key word being Love as in Obey).
In my opinion we should avoid covering up the practical Christianity with theological.

Yes and so was the Bible. Because we are IN time God deals with us IN time. He is just not relegated or controled or influenced by time.

Well now you're getting into a different issue. We were not discussing OSAS. There are plenty of threads already open in that regard.

I agree, and Jesus showed very clearly that LOVE is a real signifier of a person's faith, but not the only one. Actions are involved as well.

God may not have a beginning or end, but everything He created does, in one form or another. In order to get past that, we have to have a point of salvation in order to start down the road to Eternal Life. It is a journey that starts at a MOMENT in time, and ends at the time we die.