Is Salvation instantenous or is it a process?

[epluribus36]

What difference does it make?

 

[Steeno7]

Sorry, but you are missing the fact that ...
God will NOT override man's free will to choose whether or not he will fully co-operate with this whole salvation process.

And you are ignoring the Scripture verses which say that ...
man can choose to fall away from God's grace, etc. and lose his salvation, i.e. eternal life.
.

You are ignoring Jesus and His promises. Jesus will lose none who are His. He will complete the work He has begun. He will never relax His grip on us. Those are His promises to we who are His, and He does not lie, nor can He fail.

 

[Steeno7]

As extraordinary pointed out, IF we are saved when we first believe, wouldn't then justification (which took 12+ years later for Abraham) be redundant?
(Again, I am reminded of the differences in definitions that drsteve pointed out)

Don't you think we should start looking for more precise definitions to what is actually happening in our lives, the salvation process of our Lord, to understand the milestones of our spiritual walk?

Then perhaps the very arguments of losing or not losing salvation would disappear, since both sides of the debate are looking at one of the points while disregarding the forest?

Thanks,
Ed

Abraham? Abraham looked forward to a Savior to come.

 

[Edial]

Salvation is being "made safe". And Christ makes us safe from more than just hell.

Salvation is not a one-time static event. Salvation is the dynamic functioning of the Person of Jesus Christ within us, the restorative activity of the Savior. Everything centers in Him. Everything is inherent in Him, His Person and His continuing activity.

Agree.
But wouldn't you say that it would be better if we start (perhaps more cautiously in the beginning) start changing our vocabulary to saying that believe does not necessarily mean saved.
We are saved through faith ... yet according to James faith needs to be completed in order for someone to be justified.

So there appears to be a process from a point we first believe and then when we actually act on that belief.
It appears it took Abraham years to get justified from the time he first believed.

 

[Edial]

What difference does it make?

Once we understand better about our relationship with our Lord and the ways He does things and the way things work in the spiritual realm, our walk with Christ is steadier. Our growth is significant.

Welcome to CF.

 

[sdowney717]

Agree.
But wouldn't you say that it would be better if we start (perhaps more cautiously in the beginning) start changing our vocabulary to saying that believe does not necessarily mean saved.
We are saved through faith ... yet according to James faith needs to be completed in order for someone to be justified.

So there appears to be a process from a point we first believe and then when we actually act on that belief.
It appears it took Abraham years to get justified from the time he first believed.

That is shaky ground.
Because of I John 5 and Romans 10

5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.

If I am saved by believing as Apostle John says, then I am saved and justified right now in God's point of view. I do not need to do perform works righteousness to make me saved.

The good works we do are as Paul says in ephe 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Good works follow on after our salvation and are prepared beforehand by God before we were saved to do them.

Part of the Master's plan. Part of his predestining us.

 

[Steeno7]

Agree.
But wouldn't you say that it would be better if we start (perhaps more cautiously in the beginning) start changing our vocabulary to saying that believe does not necessarily mean saved.
We are saved through faith ... yet according to James faith needs to be completed in order for someone to be justified.

So there appears to be a process from a point we first believe and then when we actually act on that belief.
It appears it took Abraham years to get justified from the time he first believed.

Salvation is not a process, it is a Person, Jesus Christ. To believe in Christ is to receive Christ, who is our salvation.

 

[extraordinary]

Don't you think we should start looking for more precise definitions to what is actually happening in our lives,
the salvation process of our Lord, to understand the milestones of our spiritual walk?
Then perhaps the very arguments of losing or not losing salvation would disappear,
since both sides of the debate are looking at one of the points while disregarding the forest?

I believe I received this enlightenment about one year ago ...

All of the warnings are directed at God's elect (whoever exactly these are)!
The warnings are to ensure that they hear them ... for they surely will follow them!
Because they are His obedient elect.
The warnings, and everything else, are basically written only to the elect.

Except that ... God wants the non-elect to see what was required of the elect ... to believe and be obedient to.

Like years ago, Jesus told me He was sending me to the elect because it was necessary for them to hear the gospel.
Later, He told me He also wanted the non-elect to hear, so they couldn't complain to Him later that they never heard.
.

 

[Edial]

That is shaky ground.
Because of I John 5 and Romans 10



If I am saved by believing as Apostle John says, then I am saved and justified right now in God's point of view. I do not need to do perform works righteousness to make me saved.

The good works we do are as Paul says in ephe 2



Good works follow on after our salvation and are prepared beforehand by God before we were saved to do them.

Part of the Master's plan. Part of his predestining us.

Oh, even if one verse is against what I said I definitely do not want to promote it.

'Believes' in the verse you quoted is in context of continual believing.
And in Romans 9 salvation is in a future tense after one initially believes.

It is a promise, yes, and the individual WILL be saved.
I do not doubt that.

What we seem to have is initial belief - continue believing - act on your belief - you are justified.

Just trying to get a grip on this.

 

[bibletruth469]

The word salvation means delivered. To answer the question you must first clarify what type of deliverence you are referencing... PAST TENSE: I have been saved (delivered) from the penalty of sin (Justification) ex. Eph. 2:8 PRESENT TENSE: I am being saved (delivered) from the power of sin (Sanctification) ex. 1 Cor. 1:18 FUTURE TENSE: I shall be saved (delivered) from the presence of sin (Glorification) ex. Rom. 13:11

This is a really good post and it is so true!

 

[Ignatius21]

Salvation is not a process, it is a Person, Jesus Christ. To believe in Christ is to receive Christ, who is our salvation.

Hmmmmmmmm...

Could you elaborate on this? Very interesting way to phrase it.

 

[pyramid33]

In the blink of an eye.

 

[Steeno7]

Hmmmmmmmm...

Could you elaborate on this? Very interesting way to phrase it.

To believe in Jesus Christ is to receive Him. If you have not received Him then you have not truly believed in Him.

If you have received Jesus Christ as Savior He is continually saving you. Salvation is not static, but is the continuing dynamic activity of the Savior, in you, being who He is, the Savior, doing what He does, saving you.

 

[nobdysfool]

In answer to the title of the thread: Yes.

 

[Edial]

In answer to the title of the thread: Yes.

How do you understand the texts that when Abraham believed God Sarah would bear a child it was credited to his as righteousness.
Then, 12+ years later, when he offered Isaac to God Abraham was justified?

If salvation is instantaneous, what point was he saved at, when he first believed or 12 years later when he was justified?

I always thought it was when he first believed, but now I am not sure, since James says he was justified after what he has done.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DeaconDean]

How do you understand the texts that when Abraham believed God Sarah would bear a child it was credited to his as righteousness.
Then, 12+ years later, when he offered Isaac to God Abraham was justified?

If salvation is instantaneous, what point was he saved at, when he first believed or 12 years later when he was justified?

I always thought it was when he first believed, but now I am not sure, since James says he was justified after what he has done.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Ed

Ed, if I may.

Two New Testament authors used Abraham as their example. Paul in the verse you quoted, and James in chapter 2.

Salvation is instantaneous, it is also true that it is past, present, and future.

I can take you to an altar where in 1974, I was saved.

I can show you now, that I am currently being saved.

And in the future, when He returns, I will be saved.

But since you brought up the offering of Isaac, let me add this.

A fact that most seen to overlook at are the differences between what Paul is quoting from, and what James quotes, rather, bases their statements on. Paul uses Gen. 15:6 as his basis in Romans 4, and James uses Gen. 22:1-19 for his basis. Abraham was seventy-five years old when he believed God in Genesis 15. However, Abraham was 100 years old when Isaac was born. (cf. Gen. 22:6) Tradition has it that Isaac was around twenty-five when Abraham took him to the mountain for the sacrifice. If the Catholics and Arminians are correct, then it logically means that Abraham had to wait fifty years in order to actually be justified! No! We merely point out that the offering of his son, gave evidence to Abraham’s faith in God.

Professing to be a Christian when one is not may secure a standing before men, it may improve his moral and social prestige, he may be able to join a church, and help promote his commercial interests, but can it save him? What is the use to fein to be charitable when works of charity are withheld? What good does it bring to calling oneself a Christian when empty stomachs are met with good words? How can a person claim to be a Christian and clothe the naked by good wishes? What does it profit to profess to be a believer when there is no true piety?

A.W. Pink, The Doctrine of Justification, Chapter 9, Its Evidence, book on-line, accessed 5/31/09, found on the World-Wide-web at: 9. Its Evidence

As drstevej said, salvation is current possession. And in the future, upon Jesus' return, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Edial]

Ed, if I may.

Two New Testament authors used Abraham as their example. Paul in the verse you quoted, and James in chapter 2.

Salvation is instantaneous, it is also true that it is past, present, and future.

I can take you to an altar where in 1974, I was saved.

I can show you now, that I am currently being saved.

And in the future, when He returns, I will be saved.

But since you brought up the offering of Isaac, let me add this.



A.W. Pink, The Doctrine of Justification, Chapter 9, Its Evidence, book on-line, accessed 5/31/09, found on the World-Wide-web at: 9. Its Evidence

As drstevej said, salvation is current possession. And in the future, upon Jesus' return, we will be saved from the presence of sin.

God Bless

Till all are one.

If we look at the Scriptures alone (in the context as well as literally), James states that justification is when our faith is completed by our actions.
He also said that Abraham's initial point of belief was fulfilled at the later date.

Don't you think it answers the question of people confessing Christ at some time, yet not applying any of his teachings and then naturally falling away because faith was never completed by action?

Of course, I am not saying we all need to wait "that" long to be justified ... but Abraham was special, that's why he was called our father of faith.

Also, take a look at the term "credited as righteousness".
It certainly seems like he received a "credit", but "withdrew the 'money'" when he actually did something as a response of his faith.

JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Steeno7]

If we look at the Scriptures alone (in the context as well as literally), James states that justification is when our faith is completed by our actions.
He also said that Abraham's initial point of belief was fulfilled at the later date.

Don't you think it answers the question of people confessing Christ at some time, yet not applying any of his teachings and then naturally falling away because faith was never completed by action?

Of course, I am not saying we all need to wait "that" long to be justified ... but Abraham was special, that's why he was called our father of faith.

Also, take a look at the term "credited as righteousness".
It certainly seems like he received a "credit", but "withdrew the 'money'" when he actually did something as a response of his faith.

JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Thanks,
Ed

James, as he says himself, is speaking to being justified before men, in their eyes. Paul speaks to being justified before God, in His eyes.

 

[DeaconDean]

If we look at the Scriptures alone (in the context as well as literally), James states that justification is when our faith is completed by our actions.
He also said that Abraham's initial point of belief was fulfilled at the later date.

Don't you think it answers the question of people confessing Christ at some time, yet not applying any of his teachings and then naturally falling away because faith was never completed by action?

Of course, I am not saying we all need to wait "that" long to be justified ... but Abraham was special, that's why he was called our father of faith.

Also, take a look at the term "credited as righteousness".
It certainly seems like he received a "credit", but "withdrew the 'money'" when he actually did something as a response of his faith.

JAS 2:20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Thanks,
Ed

Dig a little deeper Ed.

Check out the root word for "righteous" and "justified".

Our Greek word has its root in the Greek word “dikh”. This word means “right”, “justice”; in the NT, judicial punishment, vengeance; 2 Thes. 1:9; Jude 7; sentence of punishment, judgment, Acts 25:15; personified, the goddess of justice or vengeance, Nemesis, Paena, Acts 28:4.


This word draws directly from the Hebrew word “tsadag” (tsaw-dak). Which is rendered in the OT as “justify”, “righteous”, “just”, “justice”, “cleansed”, “cleanse ourselves”, “righteousness”.


Plato links “dikaiow” with “dikh” saying it denotes obligations to men and to God, and therefore indicates “one who fulfills obligations towards men,” fulfillment of religious duties often attributed to this by such terms as : osioV, eusebhV, qeopilhV, qeosebhV.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittle, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Hendrickson Publishing, Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1962 (?), Vol. II, p 192

Also:

Plato, Gorgias, 507b; Polybius: dikaia with dsia. Histories, XXII, 10, 8 (Last reference from plato in Kittles)

Looking at the word in the LXX, it is a “forensic” term. Yet in the LXX, the predominate usage does not carry a negative meaning as some Greek usage: (w QemistokleeV, en toisi agwsi oi proexanistamenoi rapizontai. o de apoluomenoV efh oi de ge egkataleipomenoi ou stefanountai.[2]) but is constantly used in the most positive sense of “to pronounce righteous,” “to justify”, “to vindicate”. The forensic element is even stronger in the Masoretic text in that the Masoretic Isa. 42:25 is rendered as they find righteousness with Yahweh, and in the LXX it is rendered that they are declared righteous by him (apo kuriou dikaiw qhsoutai).

According to Plato’s exposition[3], there is thus carried through: “to thV fusewV dikaion”. In accordance with nature, the law gives the character of right to even the most arbitrary act. It is keeping with the nuance in Plindar that that the term is often used for divine rule and order in the law: cf. Philo, Spec. Leg., I, 67,109,140; II, 72, 113; III, 172, 180; etc; and once in Josephus, Ant., 4, 278.

It was during the Greek/Hellenistic period that the word begins to be defined from the legal sphere and takes a general usage in the sense of “fair or right”, i.e.; to formulate for oneself as “dikaion”. (cf.: “axioun, dikimoun&#8221 This is the most common usage: Soph. Oed., Tyr., 6, 575, 640; Oed. Col., 1350, 1642; Hdt., I, 89; Thuc., IV, 122, 5; this is true of both Josephus and Philo. (cf. Josh., Ant. 9, 187; 12, 1224; 19, 305; Philo, Abr., 142, 171; Migr., Abr., 73, Vit. Mos., I, 44; etc) Josephus who also uses this word ten times, never deviates from Greek usage.

When the word is applied personally, a widespread usage springs up to mean: “to establish”: “to dikaion” for someone,” “to treat rightly,” “to secure justice for someone.” This can take a negative connotation; i.e.; “to judge”, “to punish”, (cf. “kakoun”, “to do wrong” “doloun”, “to outwit,” “zhloun”, etc.)

Ibid.

[2] “Themistocles, at the games those who start before the signal are beaten with rods.” Themistocles said in justification. “Those left behind win no crown.” Herodotus, Histories, Book VIII, Chapter 59, A.D. Godfey, Cambridge, Howard University Press, 1920.

[3] Cf. Leg., III, 690c, IV, 715a.


God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[Edial]

James, as he says himself, is speaking to being justified before men, in their eyes. Paul speaks to being justified before God, in His eyes.

How do you know that?
Can you help me with verses?