IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That is because multiple scriptures directly contradict your held doctrine. In order to formulate doctrine all of Scripture must somehow be reconciled with your view lest there be holes in your doctrine.
Is your systematic theology to create contradictions where none exist?
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You're welcome as I agree with you. Ironically, I used to hold to the view of unconditional salvation/security as that is what I was taught in seminary by my professors - all of whom were Reformed in their theology. I simply believed what I was taught without really studying the subject in depth for myself. Over a period of years later did I come to realize that what I was taught was incorrect and I had a hard time unlearning what I initially learned. It is much harder to unlearn and learn, then learn correctly the first time. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias creep in making it difficult for us to perceive and understand that we may be holding on to doctrines that are not true - which is why we tend not to change our cherished beliefs.
 
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Does the Holy Spirit factor into this at all?

Just wondering what your view is on the conditions for receiving God's Spirit and what happens if we break these condtions outlined in God's Word?
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Now, take that thought and read through the earlier posts in our discussion.
The verse in question was not innocuous, but it was close in that it was not a call to action so much as a statement about the reality of things.
So again, I ask you. Do you deny that if a believer lives according to his flesh, he will spiritually die? A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

Thanks brother I edited my previous post you are quoting from. Too early in the morning my time and I had too many threads opened and lost my track. The key lesson here I believe is that we have to turn away from men and seek JESUS personally for his Spirit to be our guide and teacher. I see God guiding you to help others.

God bless brother.
 
Reactions: Oldmantook
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Oldmantook, I thought that you at last got the point (at about posts 99 & 100), so don't you see the difference between the two sentences after all?

If you do, it explains why Romans 8:13 does not substantiate the claim that was made way back in the beginning of this.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Is your systematic theology to create contradictions where none exist?
You keep avoiding the texts I cite. Why is that? You are the one who brought up Judas' example. I showed you from Scripture that Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, therefore he was one of the elect. Yet you ignore what I wrote instead of dealing with the text. Thanks for the discussion but don't bother replying as our discussion has become unfruitful (pun intended).
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What does Ephesians 1 have anything to do with James 5:19-20? You avoid dealing with the text directly in order to cling to your belief but that is your prerogative.
You cited “down payment” or pledge from Ephesians 1.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


728. arrabón
Strong's Concordance
arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Definition: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Usage: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, Jesus said Judas was the betrayer and son of perdition so that the Scriptures would be fulfilled.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'm still waiting for an answer to post #97.

Have you figured out the difference between the two sentences?
In your example, the first sentence is a statement of fact without any conditions attached. The second is a statement of fact with a condition indicated by the the word "if." The first example occurs no matter what as one season follows the other, but what happens in the second example concerning the fragrance of one's clothes is conditioned by what he/she will do.

Your example is actually irrelevant I think. I suggest you reread or at least study for yourself what a Greek 1st class conditional sentence entails. In such sentence construction, the protasis for the sake of argument is assumed to BE TRUE. Therefore Paul warns the brother who IS LIVING ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, that HE WILL DIE. Unlike the question of whether or not one will change his clothes which is a possibility or probability, the Greek 1st class condition of the protasis does not allow for possibility or probability and instead assumes that the brother is indeed living according to the flesh. Hence he will die.

Again, based on this, do you believe a believer will spiritually die should he choose to live his life according to the flesh?
 
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thank you for the discussion but we end here as it is evident that both of us hold to intractable views at this point and at least for me the discussion is no longer productive.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
No, Jesus said Judas was the betrayer and son of perdition so that the Scriptures would be fulfilled.
Indeed he betrayed; but you ignore the fact that Judas was of the elect - he was given to Jesus by the Father. The soteriological term "elect" is only descriptive of believers - never unbelievers. Thanks for the discussion.
 
Upvote 0

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,116
34,054
Texas
✟176,076.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Indeed he betrayed; but you ignore the fact that Judas was of the elect - he was given to Jesus by the Father. The soteriological term "elect" is only descriptive of believers - never unbelievers. Thanks for the discussion.
He was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures. Judas was the branch which never produced fruit thrown in the fire. He was the “Lord Lord, did we not do...”.

The ones the Father gave Jesus it is said not one perished.

John 17: KJV
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.​

A distinction is made. The ones who would not perish were given to Him.

Judas was chosen but not for preservation but destruction. To fulfill the Scriptures.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
That's right. Now translate that into the original point about Romans 8:13.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

Not really brother, the "IF's" as presented in the OP for both the OLD and NEW COVENANT scriptures are condiional clauses to receiving the promises of God's salvation and eternal life. Both sets of scriptures follow this exact same theme. They are not a different set of IFs at all but are all salvation related condtional promises.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Both sets of scriptures follow this exact same theme. They are not a different set of IFs at all but are all salvation related condtional promises.
Yet they do not. You can say that they are all "salvation-related," which is really broad, but what they address about salvation in particular is not the same.

That is why I suggested reading them more closely. I know, of course, that some people will not do that, but maybe some others will.
 
Upvote 0

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

Well that is not true. All I am hearing now is your words denying God's. What do the scriptures say?

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple of JESUS is conditional...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Now these are but a few for discussion sake. Did you want me to post some more? Just let me know as I am happy to do so as there is way more than what I have posted here in the New Testament which follows the same these as the OLD Testament and that is that salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word).
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Well that is not true. All I am hearing now is your words denying God's.
I know. I know. But as I said, some people may look more closely and see that the nature of the two sets of verses -- OT and NT -- is not the same, although they deal generally with the matter of salvation.

To understand the words of God rather than misunderstand them ought to be a good thing, don't we usually think?
 
Reactions: LoveGodsWord
Upvote 0

Romans 8

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 16, 2019
1,410
1,151
Canada
✟137,253.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

I have some questions for you. How many threads in the past month alone have you started on this very topic? Is it a hobby to cut snippets from the Bible and post them here or an obsession? How does it make you feel to believe that you know something others do not? Are there any feelings of pride involved? Is there any idolatry involved with such thinking?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveGodsWord

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2017
22,242
6,634
Queensland
Visit site
✟252,319.00
Country
Australia
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married

Like this one? None. Though most of my threads are not peace and safety but God's Word to prepare those that have ears to hear.

Gods Sheep hear His Voice (the Word)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0