Is salvation conditional?

You guys probably believe in Lordship Salvation as well...?

DarthNeo said:

You guys probably believe in Lordship Salvation as well...?

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Let's stop throwing around terms and or opinions and deal with the actual verses that were brought up.
Also, can you make a real world example out of what you believe?
The Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable (or real world example) with a parable or example of her own and Jesus commended her faith in doing so.


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Jason0047 said:

Obviously not every person's case is the same. I also believe the thief was saved without any works done later to prove his faith. Babies who die are also saved. In these cases, we have to understand that God is sovereign and in control of life and death and in knowing every person's destiny. So those who accept Jesus on their death beds are individuals in whom God knows will be faithful towards His Kingdom.

But as for God allowing believers (who lived out their faith) who are wicked and or who are lazy into His Kingdom:

Why on Earth would God allow somebody into Heaven or into His Kingdom who was rebellious? It wouldnt' make any sense. The fact, that a person chooses to NOT be sinful now proves that they will still be that way when they are in God's Kingdom. God does not force change a person later on. If that was the case, then God would just save everyone then. The Scriptures say cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. The Bible says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.


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I'm not completely sure what point you're trying to make, but hopefully this will help.

God does not do something because it is just, it is just because God does it. We cannot define His actions by our standards.

stephen583 said:

You are trying to sell a half truth, based on your own misinterpretation of Scripture. No context = gibberish.

Having faith in Christ means believing what Jesus actually testified to in the Gospel.

"If you love me, you will keep my commandments.. The one who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him" (John 14:15-23).

"If you love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter (The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of Truth, John 16:13), that he may abide with you" (John 14:15-31).

No one can willfully and unrepentantly violate the commandments of God and make the claim at that same time they believe in and have faith in Jesus, without committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which is exactly what Ananias did (Acts 5:3), he violated the commandment, "Thou shalt not Lie" and did not repent.

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And Christ reduced the commandments down to TWO, Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Every sin I had, have, or will commit was FORGIVEN the moment I accepted Christ. Confessing sins of COMMISSION is pretty easy, a sin that you purposefully commit, but sins of OMISSION, are you telling me you got EVERY ONE of them confessed? Man, I hope you don't miss just one little one...

When I confess sin now, I don't ask for forgiveness, I AGREE with God that it was sin so that I can restore my FELLOWSHIP with Him, my RELATIONSHIP is never broken...

DarthNeo said:

And Christ reduced the commandments down to TWO, Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Every sin I had, have, or will commit was FORGIVEN the moment I accepted Christ. Confessing sins of COMMISSION is pretty easy, a sin that you purposefully commit, but sins of OMISSION, are you telling me you got EVERY ONE of them confessed? Man, I hope you don't miss just one little one...

When I confess sin now, I don't ask for forgiveness, I AGREE with God that it was sin so that I can restore my FELLOWSHIP with Him, my RELATIONSHIP is never broken...

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If you're referring to Salvation as the relationship, I am in agreement with this.

DarthNeo said:

And Christ reduced the commandments down to TWO, Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

Every sin I had, have, or will commit was FORGIVEN the moment I accepted Christ. Confessing sins of COMMISSION is pretty easy, a sin that you purposefully commit, but sins of OMISSION, are you telling me you got EVERY ONE of them confessed? Man, I hope you don't miss just one little one...

When I confess sin now, I don't ask for forgiveness, I AGREE with God that it was sin so that I can restore my FELLOWSHIP with Him, my RELATIONSHIP is never broken...

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What Bible have you been reading? There are not just two commandments in the New Testament. There are 1,050+ Commands in the New Testament. 1 John 3:23 says there is a Command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:37 that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments.

As for 1 John 1:9: Yes, it actually means you are forgiven of sin if you confess of your sins. That is what it says.
Oh, and not all sin is the same, either (See 1 John 5:16-18).
Also, the Holy Spirit will convict a person of their sin, just as He does with the world (See John 16:8).
This conviction leads them to repent of their sins.
Repentance is having a Godly sorrow over your sin whereby you confess it to God by saying you are sorry.
Not just a mere paying of lip service, but with an honest and broken heart.
For have you never been broken before God in tears before over your sin seeking forgiveness?
This prayer with God will lead to a reformed life away from sin and into living righteously or holy.


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Jason0047 said:

Let's stop throwing around terms and or opinions and deal with the actual verses that were brought up.
Also, can you make a real world example out of what you believe?
The Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable (or real world example) with a parable or example of her own and Jesus commended her faith in doing so.


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Well this is a great verse...

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by by the Spirit, 3 are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Deer said:

If you're referring to Salvation as the relationship, I am in agreement with this.

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Most in the Eternal Security camp believe they can be out of fellowship with Jesus and still be saved as long as they have a mental acknowledgement that Jesus is their Savior.

Yet, 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life.


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Jason0047 said:

What Bible have you been reading? There are not just two commandments in the New Testament. There are 1,050+ Commands in the New Testament. 1 John 3:23 says there is a Command to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 14:37 that what he had written should be regarded as the Lord's Commandments.

As for 1 John 1:9: Yes, it actually means you are forgiven of sin if you confess of your sins. That is what it says.
Oh, and not all sin is the same, either (See 1 John 5:16-18).
Also, the Holy Spirit will convict a person of their sin, just as He does with the world (See John 16:8).
This conviction leads them to repent of their sins.
Repentance is having a Godly sorrow over your sin whereby you confess it to God by saying you are sorry.
Not just a mere paying of lip service, but with an honest and broken heart.
For have you never been broken before God in tears before over your sin seeking forgiveness?
This prayer with God will lead to a reformed life away from sin and into living righteously or holy.


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Dude, all you NON-DENOMINATIONAList scare me...verging on legalism.

Just remember, "...if you have not LOVE you are but a clanging cymbal..."

DarthNeo said:

Well this is a great verse...

Galatians 3:2-3
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by by the Spirit, 3 are you now being perfected by the flesh?

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Paul is addressing the heresy of going back to the Law of Moses (Which is no long binding under the New Covenant). This is evident if you were to do a keyword search on the variation of the word "circumcision" at blueletterbible. Circumcision is not a part of the Commands in the New Testament. The Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). For if you believe you are not under any kind of Law, then you must not be under the Law or Command to believe in Jesus Christ as mentioned in 1 John 3:23. Even in Romans 8, we learn that we fulfill the righteousness portion of the Law. For it says,

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).
What Law is this? The Law of Moses? No. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Romans 8:2).

What is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus? It is walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh in Christ Jesus (See Romans 8:1).


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DarthNeo said:

Dude, all you NON-DENOMINATIONAList scare me...verging on legalism.

Just remember, "...if you have not LOVE you are but a clanging cymbal..."

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I believe that God does the good work thru the believer (Philippians 2:13, John 15:5).
So I do not believe it is my own work alone that saves.
It is the work of Christ done in me.
For if a person abides in Christ (Good fruit and not bad fruit will be evident in their life).
And there is no life outside of Christ (1 John 5:12).

But Jesus said if you love me, keep my Commandments (John 14:15).

Anyways, please consider the following verses.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "
(1 Timothy 6:3-4).
"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).
"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).
"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).
"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).
"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).
"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

Again, are these works that I do alone?
No. All good comes from God. For only God is good.
So the only good works we can do is by Christ working His good work within us (if we surrender our life to Him).
That way I cannot boast or take credit for any good done in my life.


Also, here are some verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot not walking uprightly, too:

For Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

Somehow I just do not see a "sin and still be saved" type belief working with the above verses.


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So you ALWAYS walk in the Spirit, man, you are even better than Paul...you must be so proud.

Jason0047 said:

Somehow I just do not see a "sin and still be saved" type belief working with the above verses.

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Short, true, simple.

From Genesis, through Deuteronomy, Psalms, Prophets, Gospels, Epistles, Revelation,
YHWH NEVER said "GO AND SIN" and be saved.
The closest in immediate recall is when Y'SHUA told the betrayer to go sin, and sin quickly, and ALREADY KNEW he was lost never to be recovered.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Short, true, simple.

From Genesis, through Deuteronomy, Psalms, Prophets, Gospels, Epistles, Revelation,
YHWH NEVER said "GO AND SIN" and be saved.
The closest in immediate recall is when Y'SHUA told the betrayer to go sin, and sin quickly, and ALREADY KNEW he was lost never to be recovered.

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So since you have been saved, you have walked in sinless perfection?

You must be really proud of that...

The INSTANT we are saved, we receive the Holy Spirit. Ephesians 1:13-14 says, " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE, 14 who is given as a PLEDGE of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory." The Holy Spirit is a SEAL, a PROMISE, and a PLEDGE of our salvation!

DarthNeo said:

So since you have been saved, you have walked in sinless perfection?

You must be really proud of that...

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Heaven forbid!
No self-pride in any way.

I am only able to BOAST IN Y'SHUA MESSIAH ! As it is written.

DarthNeo said:

And Christ reduced the commandments down to TWO, Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

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Nope. That is a false doctrine. The passage you refer to was Jesus' way of "abbreviating" the ten commandments, and essentially boiling them down to two basic statements, not abolishing them. The Scripture states emphatically Jesus did not come to "abolish the law, or prophecy, but to fulfill them".. "and until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter will disappear from the Law, (Matthew 5:17-19) . READ IT FOR YOURSELF. Jesus did not abolish the ten commandments, and replace them with two different commandments of His own.

stephen583 said:

Nope. That is a false doctrine. The passage you refer to was Jesus' way of "abbreviating" the ten commandments, and essentially boiling them down to two basic statements, not abolishing them. The Scripture states emphatically Jesus did not come to "abolish the law, or prophecy, but to fulfill them".. "and until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter will disappear from the Law, (Matthew 5:17-19) . READ IT FOR YOURSELF. Jesus did not abolish the ten commandments, and replace them with two different commandments of His own.

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Yep, and if you love God and your neighbor as yourself, you will keep the 10, don't get all semantical on me...

DarthNeo said:

you will keep the 10

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Simple.

Well, actually the Saturday Sabbath Command is no longer binding. Paul says some regard all days the same and he also says we are not to judge in relation to Sabbaths. Paul also says Jesus nailed to the cross those ordinances that were against us. In fact, the Old Testament Commands as a whole are no longer binding. Even the moral laws from the Old Testament are different than the New Testament. For they are not attached with death penalties. For the Old Law as a complete package was officially changed with Christ's death. This is why Paul says we are not under the Law, too. He was referring to the Law of Moses (and not all Law whatsoever like with the Commands in the New Covenant).

Now, while Jesus did keep the Old Law perfectly (during His Earthly ministry before the cross), He was also making changes to the Old Law, too. For Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. Jesus did not condemn the woman caught in the act of adultery. When Jesus died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn. Meaning, the Law that required the animal sacrifices was no longer binding or acceptable. Jesus is now our perfect sacrifice. The priesthood order of Aaron has been disolved or fulfilled in Christ. Jesus is now our Heavenly High Priest (of a new priesthood order). We go to Christ as a mediator and not a physical priest. There are no more Levites. Also, after Christ's death, Peter had a vision from God that he could now eat unclean animals. This a direct violation of OT Law. In fact, Scripture itself states the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). Which makes sense because we are under a different Covenant. Jesus said, no man puts new wine into old wine skins.


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