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How much thought did it take to reach that incorrect conclusion? Seems like a truth seeker would be asking more questions, so ask Joe. I'm not going anywhere.The only thing I take from this is - you don't know. To me that means, you can't really preach the gospel to people, because you don't understand and believe to be wrong to know how exactly people get saved?
I assume you've asked God about it and He has been silent in your experience? Or have you not asked God?
I think I've explained very well how people get saved, what are your questions then Joe? That I should judge the Old Covenant people's by the New Covenant standards?
How is an attack to ask you what the Bible says about your question?Well, now I find myself responding to all kinds of accusations and questioning my personality and motives. Yes, go ahead, shoot the messenger. Attack the asker when you can't answer their questions. Good job, Christians!
I simply ask questions, if I get responses, I reply to the responses. It's called discussion. I do not judge or make assumptions about the intentions of people I'm talking with. It's called mutual respect. Why not stay on the topic instead of talking about me?
It seems Christianity does not stand questions... Or any religion, for that matter. Because I have similar discussions with people of all kinds of Christian and other faiths.
Ok, I'll try to lay this out for you, very simply.I don't see how this is a part of our discussion in this topic. What is your understanding? I'm here to learn that much.
Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life. This is why a person can lose justice anew, by turning away from God instead-again, by the way they live their lives. This is why OSAS is a fallacy.Do you understand the difference between 'justification' and 'sanctification'? Very, very important.
Justification is Jesus Christ giving us His perfect, righteousness when we are saved. Making us spotless from sin. Giving us HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. That is why the Bible says 'In Christ', 'through Christ', ect.
Sanctification is God changing us into the new creations that Christ made us through sanctification. Changing our hearts, minds and desires. Making us Christ-like. That takes a life time.
Two very different things.
Now, is justification a one time event or a process? per Romans 4, 5, and 6?
Well, you have not proven that using scripture.Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life.
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48
How is an attack to ask you what the Bible says about your question?
Ok, I'll try to lay this out for you, very simply.
Where do Christians get their understanding of God from? The Bible, God's Word?
Where else? Answer to prayer?
So if we get most of our answers from God's Word and prayer, is my asking you what the Bible says about the issue and if you prayed about it a bad answer?
No, it is the most common question that we would ask each other.
So, where have you gotten your understanding from? That's a valid question.
Depends on your view of salvation. The Catholic view is synergistic, that is to say, God works and man works works of righteousness. So just being faithful to Jesus would not produce salvation on Catholicism.
On Calvinism, we don't even have the freedom to respond, or reject Christ if we are indeed "The Elect."
On the Arminian view our works play no part in justification, but do play a part in sanctification. Loss of salvation is not a result of sin except Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Which is rejecting the HS message of our sin condition and Christ's substitutionary death on the cross. If we reject Christ later in life we can have our name "blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.
This area is known as eternal security of the believer. IVP press has a counterpoints book representing the various positions.
Justification and sanctification cannot be separated. Justification is more than just the forgiveness of sins and the imputation of righteousness. It's to be cleansed-made authentically just-then to continue to walk and grow in that justice throughout one's life. This is why a person can lose justice anew, by turning away from God instead-again, by the way they live their lives. This is why OSAS is a fallacy.
"From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:48
We left the Organizations that we had been attending for many years because of this very subject, we came to understand that they had become nothing more than Milk Peddling social clubs that took the wonderful introductory gracious Milk of the Word and turned it into a business, sure there was a high level of sincerity but also a tremendous amount of error. There are many scriptures that mention sanctification, and they are referring to our walk with Christ, Sanctification not only means our introduction to Christ through the Milk of the Word, but also our transformation into followers of Christ, which means we don't just go every week to a temple and slug down Milk for 2 hours and think that's all there is to it. we have to continue in our walk with Christ and become what He has given us the power to become, otherwise we become stagnate and bear no fruit, and become corrupted by the world. This is why Paul said:I was being facetious.
My point was that if we transport the "saying of Jesus," out of their place and time (context) we can produce some very abhorrent teaching on what God requires of us to gain salvation.
We want to take sections of scripture where the theme the author is focused on is salvation, rather than lift these out of context.
Romans 3-8
Or Phil. 3:4-11:
"
4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more:
5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee;
6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.
8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith inChrist—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.
10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead."
The passage could be summed up:
"Not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ!"
When we stack that up against, " “He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him," (Jn 14) we say which one is it works or faith?
In fact we have much work to do exegetically before we are able to understand the reference in John or the Mt 7:21-23 passages.
One of our interpretive rules is to interpret the unclear in light of the clear.
Is we to back to Matt, and John and look at those passages, are they talking about salvation? Is the surrounding theme to discuss how one is saved? Now look at Romans 3-8 and Galatians 3, Ephesians 2, Phil. 3, and ask the same questions.
So we seem to have a distinction between salvation and sanctification.
So is salvation conditional. One view is yes, and that condition is "confessing Jesus as Lord." Works play no role whatsoever in salvation/justification.
Now you may hold and defend an alternative view. Perhaps a pelagian or semi-pelagian (think RCC) view that it is a combination of our good works and Christ's death that are efficacious in our salvation.
I would be interested in hearing which view you hold and why.
Please explain why OSAS is not correct if we call God just?I agree that OSAS sounds incorrect, if we call God just. It also the single biggest reason of hypocrisy and corruption in the protestant church that holds this teaching. I personally see much, much better results in regards to deeds, purity and sincerity of faith in the Christian denominations that call salvation a process rather than a one-moment event.
Let me ask this, if a person is justified, i.e. in a state of justice in the eyes of God, are they therefore saved?Well, you have not proven that using scripture.
So again, how is justification more than the forgiveness of sin and the imputation of righteousness?
Scripture please that your understanding of justification is correct.
Let's start there.
Umm... This is somewhat true but in a different way.Plus with all the verses of Christian being referred to as being in a slave/master situation kind of paints the picture that you couldn't leave the faith. He owns us, quite frankly.
I mostly agree with this, but I would argue that a person who has truly accepted Christ could not lose their salvation, even despite a possible loss of faith later in life. The passage mentioning blotting names out of the book of life is found in Psalms, which must be interpreted as poetry and not necessarily literal at all times. The unforgiveable sin, the rejection of the Holy Spirit, is dying in rejection of Christ. Simply put, an unsaved person cannot be forgiven and will be sent to hell. This is not referring to a Christian losing their salvation, but why people are sent to hell.
Someone is saved through being justified.Let me ask this, if a person is justified, i.e. in a state of justice in the eyes of God, are they therefore saved?
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