Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

[BNR32FAN]

Yes!

We are saved by Grace through Faith to do the good works that God prepared beforehand.

Amen!

What if we don’t do the works He has prepared for us?

 

[iamchance]

What if we don’t do the works He has prepared for us?

Good question - I'm not sure. Do you know?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Good question - I'm not sure. Do you know?

I think John 15 gives us a good idea.

 

[iamchance]

I think John 15 gives us a good idea.

Thanks for sharing. How would you clearly identify the works that were prepared for you?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Good question - I'm not sure. Do you know?

Titus 1:16 says you can deny God by a lack of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing with the Justification process;
And Ephesians 2:10 is dealing with the Sanctification process.

 

[iamchance]

Titus 1:16 says you can deny God by a lack of works.
Ephesians 2:8-9 is dealing with the Justification process;
And Ephesians 2:10 is dealing with the Sanctification process.

I'm familiar with the Ephesian scriptures, but not Titus. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I'm familiar with the Ephesian scriptures, but not Titus. Thanks for sharing.

Your welcome.

As for Ephesians:

I believe Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to Justification which is "Initial Salvation" and or "Ultimate Salvation." For if a believer stumbles into committing a serious sin on rare occasion, do they do a good work to cleanse themselves of it? Surely not. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. This is God's grace. The fall back position to how we first gained entrance to salvation. God's grace. Without it; Nobody could be saved.

For how many times are gifts received? Just once, and we are saved by God's grace like a gift. This shows us the nature of this process of salvation. It is founded primarily on seeking forgiveness with the Lord and not in what we do. It is God's gift to us. Not a license to sin. For Jude 1:4 warns against those who turn God's grace into a license for immorality.

Anyways, the letter to the Ephesians also talks of Sanctification in relation to salvation (Which is after we are saved by God's grace, i.e. The Justification Process).

1 "Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them." (Ephesians 5:1-7).​

Not sure if you caught it or not. Verse 1 says we are to be followers of God. But most today say that you cannot stop committing serious sins like lusting after women, and or lying, etc. In other words, they are not truly being followers of GOD according to verse 1 because GOD never justified sin. Verse 2 says walk in love as Christ has loved us (See John 15:10). We are to follow Christ's example and love in the way that He did, and not justify sin. Why? Verse 5 says that no whoremonger, covetous person, or idolator has any inheritance or part in the Kingdom of Christ and of God. Verse 6 hammers the point home even more. It says we are not to be deceived by anyone that those who do these things because the wrath of God comes upon these kinds of children of disobedience. So if somebody justifies sin like idolatry, or coveting, or sexual sins, the wrath of God abides on them (According to Scripture). Verse 7 says we are not to be partakers with them. Meaning, we are not to fellowship with them with the breaking of bread, and of worshiping together, etc.

"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13) (NIV).​

Anyways, I hope this helps, and may God's love and peace be upon you today.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thanks for sharing. How would you clearly identify the works that were prepared for you?

I believe these are some solid examples friend.

ohn 15:1-13, Matthew 25:31-46, James 2:14-26, and many others indicate that works are necessary for salvation. The very root of the works mentioned in these passages is derived from love and compassion towards others. It’s not the works themselves that are necessary but the love that produces them that is required. A person without love does not have Christ abiding within him. Faith without love is useless. Paul had this to say about faith without love.

“If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭13:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@iamchance

Please check out my post #150 (within this thread) to see 30 points in Scripture that shows how Sanctification (Which follows after Justification) also plays a part in the salvation process.

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you today.


Side Note:

Simply click on the link above that says "post #150" and it will take you to my post so you can check out the verses for yourself.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@iamchance

Also, God does the work in both Justification and in Sanctification. Granted, this is synergistic in that we cooperate with GOD. The Lord does not force salvation upon us, but if we surrender our life to Him, God moves within our lives.

So Ephesians 2:9 is a Man Directed Work because it is the king of work that a person would boast in themselves in doing. However, the true man of GOD boasts only in GOD or the LORD when good fruit or good works are present within their lives. This is what we see in Ephesians 2:10. God directed works. Works God does through the believer. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). So any accusation or false claim that we are trying to save ourselves alone by solely our own effort is null and void because we believe it is GOD who is ultimately saving us when we surrender to the good work He wants to do through our lives. For the LORD is our salvation; Both in Justification, and in Sanctification.

 

[Danthemailman]

Paul isn’t finished yet

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Paul was finished with explaining what we are saved BY (and not saved BY) in Ephesians 2:8,9 then he continues in verse 10 to explain what we are saved FOR.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Eternal Security Proponents and or Non-Eternal Security Belief Alone Proponents do not confuse Justification for salvation type verses with Glorification for salvation type verses. But for some odd reason they try to sweep under the carpet those verses that talk about Sanctification for salvation and they make a non-argument on how Justification verses even condemn Sanctification for salvation (When that is not what they are talking about). Paul is referring to Works Alone Salvationism without God's grace (Which is a denial of the Justification Process). Paul is not referring to the Sanctification process when he refers to Justification.

 

[pasifika]

Your explication appears to imply that anyone who does not do good works or turns away from Christ were never saved to begin with. But that is not always the case. John 15:1-10 teaches that even believers who are in Christ can be cut off and cast away by God and believers can also turn away from Christ and not remain in Him resulting in condemnation. Here we can see Jesus warning His faithful 11 apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him. This is an indication that even those who undoubtedly believe and have accepted Christ can still choose to turn away if they want. All Christians are presented with a choice every second of their life to either serve God or to serve satan. Paul explains this in Romans 6:15-16.

Hello, just to contribute to the discussion...in order for someone to do good works he or she must have the Spirit or (Christ ) living in them and that is Not something we as (sinners ) can choose for ourselves...

John 15:1-10...
2 important things to take away from this illustration...

(1) Faith -(abide in the vine) is our choice through knowledge...this refers to believers

(2) Love - ( fruit of our faith ) is Not our choice...because the Love is in Christ...

The whole purpose of John 15:1-10...

Refers to those who BELIEVE and are CHOSEN to bear Christ in their lives and Love is the fruit of that Election...
This not only for the disciples who were there but to All of us who believe their message...

John 15:16...You did not choose Me, BUT I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit..fruit that will last....

 

[BNR32FAN]

Paul was finished with explaining what we are saved BY (and not saved BY) in Ephesians 2:8,9 then he continues in verse 10 to explain what we are saved FOR.

So walking in the works God has prepared for us is optional? Jesus had this to say about believers with this kind of faith.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello, just to contribute to the discussion...in order for someone to do good works he or she must have the Spirit or (Christ ) living in them and that is Not something we as (sinners ) can choose for ourselves...

John 15:1-10...
2 important things to take away from this illustration...

(1) Faith -(abide in the vine) is our choice through knowledge...this refers to believers

(2) Love - ( fruit of our faith ) is Not our choice...because the Love is in Christ...

The whole purpose of John 15:1-10...

Refers to those who BELIEVE and are CHOSEN to bear Christ in their lives and Love is the fruit of that Election...
This not only for the disciples who were there but to All of us who believe their message...

John 15:16...You did not choose Me, BUT I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit..fruit that will last....

Not quite my friend. Notice what Jesus says

“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends if you do what I command you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:10-14‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If we keep His commandment to love each other we will abide in His love. The key word being “If”. Love is one of the fruits of the Spirit but it is not forced upon us. The Holy Spirit is our guide not our pilot. He does not take control over us, we are to submit to His guidance. As Paul said to the saints who are faithful to Christ in Ephesians 4

“Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:30-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

This is a prime example that the Holy Spirit does not take over control of us but we must LET Him work in us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello, just to contribute to the discussion...in order for someone to do good works he or she must have the Spirit or (Christ ) living in them and that is Not something we as (sinners ) can choose for ourselves...

John 15:1-10...
2 important things to take away from this illustration...

(1) Faith -(abide in the vine) is our choice through knowledge...this refers to believers

(2) Love - ( fruit of our faith ) is Not our choice...because the Love is in Christ...

The whole purpose of John 15:1-10...

Refers to those who BELIEVE and are CHOSEN to bear Christ in their lives and Love is the fruit of that Election...
This not only for the disciples who were there but to All of us who believe their message...

John 15:16...You did not choose Me, BUT I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit..fruit that will last....

Another thing is John 15 refutes God’s election because it refutes eternal security. John 15:2 says The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit. John 15:6 says anyone who does not abide (stay, remain, continue) in Christ is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Predestination cannot exist without eternal security.

 

[Danthemailman]

So walking in the works God has prepared for us is optional?

I did not say optional or forced or legalistic. No straw man arguments please.

Jesus had this to say about believers with this kind of faith.

Are you implying I have "that" kind of faith? What kind of faith produces no works? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14-17)

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith - Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him, not merely theoretical knowledge. These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 were not true converts. *Without faith it's impossible to please God no matter how many alleged wonderful works that these many people set out to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. This is why Jesus referred to these many people as "workers of iniquity." God does not see the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus in unbelievers, but He see's all of their sins which remain and have not been washed away by the blood of Christ. Hence, the "workers of iniquity."

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

As we read on in Matthew 7:24-27, we find two different foundations with two different results, and not salvation by works, as some would suppose. Each house has a different material upon which its foundation is laid, and each house has a different final outcome. One house is built by a wise man upon a rock and it stands. The other is built by a foolish man upon the sand and it collapses.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" setting out to do what the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing "in Him" (heart knowledge) even though they may have believed certain things "about Him" (head knowledge).

The rock that the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. *Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

 

[Danthemailman]

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. - John 15:2 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

*So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no bearing of fruit. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Jesus did not save them nor sustain them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches (like Judas Iscariot) are cut off.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I did not say optional or forced or legalistic. No straw man arguments please.

I didn’t imply that you did say they are optional I’m simply asking if they are optional or not. Either the works that God has prepared for us to walk in are optional or mandatory, so which is it?

Are you implying I have "that" kind of faith? What kind of faith produces no works? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14-17)

No not at all. I wouldn’t presume to know your level of devotion to God and I wouldn’t have the audacity to question it either. Just because a person doesn’t believe that works are necessary for salvation doesn’t mean they don’t do them.

So your saying that a saving faith produces works? Is this bearing of fruit automatic even against the person’s control or desire? Did Jesus’ 11 faithful apostles have a saving faith when they accompanied Jesus on the way to the olive grove in Gethsemane? Why does Jesus tell them to bear fruit if they are incapable of failing to do so? Did they not have a choice in whether or not they would bear fruit after they believed?

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Will
thélēma
G2307

Description:

1) what one wishes or has determined shall be done a) of the purpose of God to bless mankind through Christ b) of what God wishes to be done by us

1) commands, precepts

2) will, choice, inclination, desire, pleasure

This verse proves nothing. The Greek word thélēma also means desire.

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Will all men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth? It is God’s “will” that they do so? Surely your not a universalist?

These many people (unbelievers) in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in their works to save them and NOT IN CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them which means they were NEVER saved. Their hearts were not right with God, so their "attempted external obedience" (apart from the imputed righteousness of God which is by faith - Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) was stained with sin. *Seeking salvation by works is not the will of the Father.

Nowhere does it say they were trusting in their works to save them. They were rejected by Christ because they indulged in sin. Jesus specifically stated that.

“And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Did you continue reading onto verses 24-27? Notice the very first word “Therefore”. This indicates that Jesus is compounding on what He had just previously said about those He rejected who say to Him Lord Lord.

“"Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:24-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Evidently these people did not ACT on His words when it came to refraining from sin. There’s no mention here at all of them not having faith. These people very well could’ve believed that it’s ok to sin and Jesus will just forgive all our sins if we simply believe. That’s the implications I see here.

Those deceived by their own self-righteousness in Matthew 7:22-23 were "outwardly" setting out to do what the righteous would do yet they did not truly know Christ (had no personal relationship with Christ) which stemmed from not truly believing "in Him" (heart knowledge) even though they may have believed certain things "about Him" (head knowledge).

The rock that the wise man builds upon is true righteousness found in Jesus Christ alone. The sand the foolish man builds upon is self-righteousness. *Only those who truly believe in Him are wise and hear the words of Jesus and properly act on them. *The foolish man twists the words of Jesus and acts on their own self-righteous works system and calls that acting on the words of Jesus.

Here you are injecting a bunch of garbage into the message. There is only one determining factor here in Jesus’ message. The wise man heard Jesus’ words and acted on them and the fool heard His words and did not act on them. There is absolutely nothing said about self righteousness. Jesus gave the specific reason why He rejected them and it was because they indulged in sin. They heard His words and did not act on them by refraining from sin. Plain and simple. There’s also absolutely no indication that these people twisted Jesus’ words. Are you a sola scripture believer, because I’m not seeing half of what your claiming the scriptures actually say here. Honestly it looks like your the one twisting His words here. I’m simply taking it for what it actually says. Not what I want it to say.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

So your saying that when Jesus says that branches that are in Him are cut off by The Father they were not really in Christ? Yeah I get that one a lot. Jesus says they’re are in Him and you say they’re not really in Him.

And BTW Jesus does address the matter of those who bear fruit and then later stop bearing.

“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit is cut off from the vine.

He who abides in Me he beareth much fruit.

Anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned.

My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be My disciples.

If you keep my commandments you will abide in My love just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

Seriously we can just stop bearing fruit and abide in Christ? Is that how it works?