Is revelations scary??

[Psalms34]

Sorry...

A locust is SLIGHTLY smaller than a hellicopter, and is NOT a machine.

hellicopters DON'T come from the abyss, or sting people with their tails, like -scorpians- do.

(Just to let you know)




Peace in Christ.


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Hmmm... So you are saying that the passage in context is a literal representation? I'd like to see you try to describe an attack helicopter if you had never seen one before let alone any thing man made that could fly. Does this mean that when people describe UFO's as flying saucers that they are really something that just happened to get loose out of the dish washer? Locusts and helicopters fit well, they hop/fly from place to place, they have stinger missals and all that stuff that was described. As for the abyss, well what ever John's point, they were being dispatched from an evil place. John was to write the things he saw, not a clear cut explanation of what these really were because he had to figure these things out for himself.

 

[daverain]

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But then again...

SOME find John's words EASY to see literally.

I do.

(These critters, -will- STING YOU. YOUCH!!)

(and they come from The Abyss)

(remember, some people view 'the enemy', as being 'only symbolic', as well.)



(I find, when The Bible is being 'figurative', IT TELLS US.)




Peace in Christ.


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[Psalms34]

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But then again...

SOME find John's words EASY to see literally.

I do.

(These critters, -will- STING YOU. YOUCH!!)

(and they come from The Abyss)

(remember, some people view 'the enemy', as being 'only symbolic', as well.)



(I find, when The Bible is being 'figurative', IT TELLS US.)




Peace in Christ.


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And it does. Rev 1:11 "What you see". John clearly writes in a manor of perspective. Perspective is what you make of it, yes literal but figurative at the same time. I suppose to us being stuck here in the 3rd (or 4th) dimension, words for the perspective, literal or figurative, would possibly be far to complicated to comprehend concerning other states of perspective beyond this dimension. Perspective.

 

[Telrunya]

Christians have always been murdered for their beliefs...we have millions of martyrs in the name of the Lord. The Rapture is a different kind of a thing...completely different than a Brother or Sister begin killed for the faith, so I'm not sure how you think they're the same thing what so ever.

And don't forget also, that when this AntiChrist is revealed it will be already far into the Tribulation...by then the Rapture would have happened and any new Saved Believered would have to deal with what's happening in the Tribulation.... most people I would think would realize something is going on if they saw all the signs God was giving them (if you read Revelations you can see what signs He sends to the earth). It's each of our choices to decide if we're for or against God. And unbelievers will also deny the fact that the true God rules the heavens and earth.

God bless.

I would still like to see the scripture you have that supports a pre trib rapture. One of the problems I have with the pre trib rapture is clearly outlined in the left behind series. What calls us to Christ? Scripture is clear that the Holy Spirit is what testifies to the Son. The Holy Spirit is what convicts us. Next question: Where does the Holy Spirit live? In the hearts of believers. He was given to us at pentacost. A pre trib rapture hinges on the Holy Spirit being the one holding back the spirit of lawlessness

2 Thessalonians 2:2-7 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way (NASB)

We have to remember that Satan is not God's opposite. He would like the world to think so but it isn't true. He is a fallen angel. He is Michael's opposite. If the Holy Spirit is the one being taken away then no one else will be called to Christ by Him. This Scripture also makes it clear that the rapture will not happen until after the man of lawlessness is revealed by taking his seat in the temple of God. This doesn't happen until well into the time of tribulation.

 

[Telrunya]

And it does. Rev 1:11 "What you see". John clearly writes in a manor of perspective. Perspective is what you make of it, yes literal but figurative at the same time. I suppose to us being stuck here in the 3rd (or 4th) dimension, words for the perspective, literal or figurative, would possibly be far to complicated to comprehend concerning other states of perspective beyond this dimension. Perspective.

I shudder to find myself agreeing so much with Daverain on this thread. LOL J/K I love you Daverain.

I agree with you Faith, that we have to understand that John wouldn't know what a helicopter really was and would have to find some contemporary way of explaining it. He does however have a good grasp of size and numbers and doesn't indicate that the "locust" of his vision were any larger than a normal locust.

Revelation 9:4-5 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

They are told not to harm the people who have the seal of God on their foreheads, and they do not have the power to kill. This may indicate chemical warfare but since the power comes from the tail I would discount helicopters since their weapons packs are located under wing and also because verse 10 really indicated the tails will be what strikes the people. Physical contact. I have to agree with Daverain on this that it probably is exactly what John saw. These are demons attacking and this is their appearance.

 

[Psalms34]

I shudder to find myself agreeing so much with Daverain on this thread. LOL J/K I love you Daverain.

I agree with you Faith, that we have to understand that John wouldn't know what a helicopter really was and would have to find some contemporary way of explaining it. He does however have a good grasp of size and numbers and doesn't indicate that the "locust" of his vision were any larger than a normal locust.

Revelation 9:4-5 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

They are told not to harm the people who have the seal of God on their foreheads, and they do not have the power to kill. This may indicate chemical warfare but since the power comes from the tail I would discount helicopters since their weapons packs are located under wing and also because verse 10 really indicated the tails will be what strikes the people. Physical contact. I have to agree with Daverain on this that it probably is exactly what John saw. These are demons attacking and this is their appearance.

Well if you believe that Revelation is supposed to be translated as completely literal than I think you have that right to believe so. My case concerning the OP is that it is less scarry if you understand Johns perspective. As for my example, I think it fits very well to explain the subject, though I'm not going to be drawn into a debate since that was not the point of my post. But you have the right to believe that these are actual locusts and you can believe that two-edged swords flying out of the mouth of Jesus.

 

[Highland Watchman]

Well if you believe that Revelation is supposed to be translated as completely literal than I think you have that right to believe so. My case concerning the OP is that it is less scarry if you understand Johns perspective. As for my example, I think it fits very well to explain the subject, though I'm not going to be drawn into a debate since that was not the point of my post. But you have the right to believe that these are actual locusts and you can believe that two-edged swords flying out of the mouth of Jesus.

Okay, so we'll assume that John was writing about something he's never seen before throughout the entire narrative of Revelation, and that every image that is there really represents something else that John's readers would neither understand or be able to picture... I mean, would the beasts out of the sea and earth be tanks that he is trying to explain, and the antichrist is not really a person but a machine? Or what about when the city is coming down out of Heaven? Perhaps that is a giant alien space ship (like in the Stargate movie and tv series), and is really something that we are meant to fear and be in awe of... or perhaps it is something man made, and the "new heavens and new earth" are really a man-made environment on this space ship because man destroyed the world that we have by nuclear missiles (which is what the comet Wormwood represents)? And let's also say that the 7 churches mean 7 dispensations of the church... that would mean that either the rapture has already happened (if we follow the Philodelphian rapture idea) and there is yet to be a general falling away of the church yet to come. Or maybe we are in the midst of that luke-warm church stage...


To be honest, we can really make the symbols of the specific images resemble and mean different things... but if we focus so much on the symbols and the images that we forget the argument of Revelation, not to mention John's purpose for writing it, then what's the point of even having Revelation in Scripture in the first place? There is a message in the book of Revelation, and I believe that it is far more important than debating over whether the locusts are real locusts, demons, an empire/people group, or helicopters... Let's look beyond arguing over the specific images and ask why John put those images there in the first place, and what his point was.

 

[Psalms34]

Okay, so we'll assume that John was writing about something he's never seen before throughout the entire narrative of Revelation, and that every image that is there really represents something else that John's readers would neither understand or be able to picture...

Interesting point but I don't know who you are addressing. I never said that Revelation was purely figurative. Many things were clearly explained to him. Though some things that he had seen, he had to relate in ways that he understood, to relay the vision to the readers. I believe that John was a very creative person and used words to go beyond simple visual descriptions.

 

[daverain]

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Revelation 9:4-5 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man.

These are -NOT- hellicopters.

Hellicopters -DO NOT EAT- grass, plants, or trees (this should be clear).

Can't you imagine 'critters', who 'STING' un-believers, over a period of five-months?


Thought: -perhaps- the 144,000, are the Christians who've escaped being murdered. (=They've 'escaped' The Great Tribulation.)


(Maybe?)

Ahhh! This post equals The Number of 'his' name.

(=That's how many posts I've done. Time to -quickly- do another, and make it 667.)




Peace in Christ.




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[Psalms34]

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These are -NOT- hellicopters.

Hellicopters -DO NOT EAT- grass, plants, or trees (this should be clear).

.

heh are you back on that again?? Well lets see, one could say that helicopters do in fact eat grass, plants or trees. It takes resources to manufacture and maintain operations of such vehicles. I guess it would depend on resources in this case, having a standing force already in operation would not require additional resources to be gathered if an ample stock of replacement parts and fuel are in reserve during the time of their operation. Understanding that resources during this time may be limited, I see it probable that such an interpretation could have merit.

 

[repoland2]

daverain, with all due respect, and utterly out of Love for you... I suggest you stop bantering people.

Your constant arguing and telling people that hellicopters are not locusts *which everyone already knows* is nothing but insulting and degrading.

You seem rather wound up about your beliefs, go with the flow my friend... If you are going to give people the Lord's blessings through your words, then you must let God speak through you, instead of trying to do it from your own understanding of how people perceive things.

 

[Psalms34]

telling people that hellicopters are not locusts *which everyone already knows* is nothing but insulting and degrading.

Good point, actually a lot of people see it that way though, as in helicopters being described in that passage. But I don't stick to such things dogmatically because of the nature of the book of Revelation. You cant really take that passage and develop an entire belief system based on it such as like some do by associating the 144000 with the Church. I'm sure that just by reviewing my profile answers on end time views, it was easy to figure out something to bring up to try to create a heated debate which I chose not to reply to here.

Anyway, so what is the nature of the book of Revelation? Simply put, it is an unveiling of the nature and power of Jesus Christ. John spent much time compiling the Gospel of John with the theme that Jesus is God. Now we see in Revelation that he takes this further and unveils the completed work in Jesus Christ as God. Yes there is much mystery surrounding the book of Revelation, but don't we just all love a good mystery book? And not only that, there is a blessing for just reading it, not for feeling that you are 100% right in how you view the work, just for reading it.

 

[daverain]

(ah, I can write)

I understand debates start because of MANY reasons.

However....

To -OTHERS- (who are new), they (IMHO) NEED TO SEE -certain- things AS LITERAL.

(so many DON'T)

Here's a song I wrote, for the 'newbies':

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My Song:
---------

"Pre Tribber Pre Tribber When Will You See?"

"Pre Tribber Pre Tribber How Things Can Be."


"Pre Tribber Pre Tribber When Will You Know?"

"Pre Tribber Pre Tribber How Things Can Go."

-daverain


(The Bible -IS- clear, -WHEN- it's being SYMBOLIC. Example "The Harlot is The Great City..etc." ) (The ten horns are kings, etc, etc)


(THE BIBLE TELLS US -WHEN- IT'S BEING SYMBOLIC)


Jehova's Witnesses (a NON-Christian movement) look at Revelation SO SYMBOLICALLY, that...

THEY DECLARE: The Second Coming of Christ, has -ALREADY HAPPENED- (I'm -NOT- kidding.)

I've met Christians who believe that -ALSO-.


(One -NEEDS to be careful)

I was only -speculating- on the 144,000.

The more I think about it,

the more I feel that they are (protected) Jews,

apart from those Christians who haven't been murdered.

Christians -WOULD- (and -DO-) have 'God's seal' on 'their foreheads'.

(NO -Christian- will get 'STUNG', by said 'critters')




Peace in Christ.


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[Telrunya]

Well if you believe that Revelation is supposed to be translated as completely literal than I think you have that right to believe so. My case concerning the OP is that it is less scarry if you understand Johns perspective. As for my example, I think it fits very well to explain the subject, though I'm not going to be drawn into a debate since that was not the point of my post. But you have the right to believe that these are actual locusts and you can believe that two-edged swords flying out of the mouth of Jesus.

Interesting point but I don't know who you are addressing. I never said that Revelation was purely figurative. Many things were clearly explained to him. Though some things that he had seen, he had to relate in ways that he understood, to relay the vision to the readers. I believe that John was a very creative person and used words to go beyond simple visual descriptions.

Niether did I say everything in Revelation was completely literal. I understand your point. The only reason I am saying anything at all is because I don't believe scripture points to a pre trib rapture. I don't want people's love for Jesus to grow cold because he didn't take them out of the world before the tribulation begins. I believe that we should read scripture with face value hermeneutics because God is not the author of confusion. We cant underestimate what people like John, Paul, and Moses understood about their visions. We know we get fairy tales such as mermaids from people misunderstanding what they actually saw, and many people try to say the same principle applys to figurative scripture. The thing we have to remember is that story tellers who propogated myths like mermaids had a bent to exagerate and sensationalize their stories. Not so with the writers of the bible though. These were faithful men putting into words what God told them too and I believe how he told them too. I did not mean to marginalize your veiwpoint. You may very well be right, but I don't get that from the way I read the verse. I feel it's better to be prepared for the worst if we are to be the end times generation so we can do what our Lord has called us to do and witness to the unsaved rather than be caught up in our own shock and pain. This also doesn't mean to make things out to be worse than they really are, but to take a realistic approach and to take scripture to mean what it says rather than trying to read things into it and make it fit our mold of the world.

In all love and respect,

 

[Psalms34]

The only reason I am saying anything at all is because I don't believe scripture points to a pre trib rapture.

Now what does this have to do with anythinnng???
lol you should go find a nice "I believe in the pre-trib rapture" thread and go beat on those guys for a while. Everyone's doin it!

 

[Telrunya]

Now what does this have to do with anythinnng???
lol you should go find a nice "I believe in the pre-trib rapture" thread and go beat on those guys for a while. Everyone's doin it!

Point taken. I dont mean to beat on anyone at all. As to the relevance of my comments, to avoid double posting, please look at Daverain's other thread addressing the topic of helicopters in Revelation.

 

[Psalms34]

Point taken. I dont mean to beat on anyone at all. As to the relevance of my comments, to avoid double posting, please look at Daverain's other thread addressing the topic of helicopters in Revelation.

No worries. I'm just a little touchy about such discussions. I've just seen too many really spiteful and degrading anti-pretrib posts on these forums. Some people just have too much fun causing divisions. Well I should expect it though, Jesus didn't come to save the nice people so we all pretty much came from a wretched mindset and it can really take time to break these strongholds and emerge into maturity, if at all.

As for the thread on Helicopters, no I have not looked, and I doubt I will. I can tell by his posts here, he is not really someone I want to try to have a discussion with in all reality. I could easily change the example I used to bio engineering, but that was not the point of my posts here.

Peace out

 

[Angeldove97]

My reasons for having a Pre-tribulation Rapture.... great link that you may want to read over... and the reason why I believe of in it.

Link: http://newhope.tribforcehq.com/home...c&t=6379&sid=b8e0d1ec6e7575c8b5e74286a19cd6ec

 

[Angeldove97]

Some people just have too much fun causing divisions. Well I should expect it though, Jesus didn't come to save the nice people so we all pretty much came from a wretched mindset and it can really take time to break these strongholds and emerge into maturity, if at all.

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! No need in causing divisions between us. We're a family in Christ's saving grace. There's enough divisions in Christianity already.

 

[Highland Watchman]

Interesting point but I don't know who you are addressing. I never said that Revelation was purely figurative. Many things were clearly explained to him. Though some things that he had seen, he had to relate in ways that he understood, to relay the vision to the readers. I believe that John was a very creative person and used words to go beyond simple visual descriptions.

My argument was actually mainly addressed toward the entire group, though the first part of it was actually meant to continue the line of thought that the images in Revelation really mean things in the future that John would have no idea of. To be honest, not being John, I do not know what he saw. However, it can get rather dangerous to say "this image means...", especially when you are speaking from outside of John's culture and understanding. What I am merely saying is, it does not matter what each of the images represent, just as long as we understand the message and meaning behind the whole text. Like who knows? Perhaps it is all about the helicopters. I personally see it as a plague of wrath attacking a world that rejects God and brings everything onto itself. Whether this is through an invading army or through a plague of insects (or genetically inhanced monsters), or scary looking machines doesn't matter to me. What does matter is that there is a scourge on the land because of the people's sin, and that it is further declaration that only God has the power to hold or release these judgments on the people, and that all who defy God will be punished for their wickedness... Notice how they do not sting any of those who are sealed by God (thus indicating that they belong to God...)

Just a few thoughts...