Is Republicatholicism a Cancer on the Body of Christ?

brewmama

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Out here in the Bible Belt the permanent underclass is rural and reliably Republican...

Don't know which form of brainwashing is more potent on them--their evangelical ministers' or the media....in rural America, most of the media is owned by conservative conglomerates--Clear Channel, Fox, Rupert Murdoch, etc...so they only hear one point of view over and over again.

You only need to listen to the media to know that's not true. It's liberals who don't understand the conservative view, not vice versa.

Who is the permanent underclass of which you speak?
 
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Fish and Bread

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21. Paul VI had an articulated vision of development. He understood the term to indicate the goal of rescuing peoples, first and foremost, from hunger, deprivation, endemic diseases and illiteracy. From the economic point of view, this meant their active participation, on equal terms, in the international economic process; from the social point of view, it meant their evolution into educated societies marked by solidarity; from the political point of view, it meant the consolidation of democratic regimes capable of ensuring freedom and peace. After so many years, as we observe with concern the developments and perspectives of the succession of crises that afflict the world today, we ask to what extent Paul VI's expectations have been fulfilled by the model of development adopted in recent decades. We recognize, therefore, that the Church had good reason to be concerned about the capacity of a purely technological society to set realistic goals and to make good use of the instruments at its disposal. Profit is useful if it serves as a means towards an end that provides a sense both of how to produce it and how to make good use of it. Once profit becomes the exclusive goal, if it is produced by improper means and without the common good as its ultimate end, it risks destroying wealth and creating poverty. The economic development that Paul VI hoped to see was meant to produce real growth, of benefit to everyone and genuinely sustainable. It is true that growth has taken place, and it continues to be a positive factor that has lifted billions of people out of misery — recently it has given many countries the possibility of becoming effective players in international politics. Yet it must be acknowledged that this same economic growth has been and continues to be weighed down by malfunctions and dramatic problems, highlighted even further by the current crisis. This presents us with choices that cannot be postponed concerning nothing less than the destiny of man, who, moreover, cannot prescind from his nature. The technical forces in play, the global interrelations, the damaging effects on the real economy of badly managed and largely speculative financial dealing, large-scale migration of peoples, often provoked by some particular circumstance and then given insufficient attention, the unregulated exploitation of the earth's resources: all this leads us today to reflect on the measures that would be necessary to provide a solution to problems that are not only new in comparison to those addressed by Pope Paul VI, but also, and above all, of decisive impact upon the present and future good of humanity. The different aspects of the crisis, its solutions, and any new development that the future may bring, are increasingly interconnected, they imply one another, they require new efforts of holistic understanding and a new humanistic synthesis. The complexity and gravity of the present economic situation rightly cause us concern, but we must adopt a realistic attitude as we take up with confidence and hope the new responsibilities to which we are called by the prospect of a world in need of profound cultural renewal, a world that needs to rediscover fundamental values on which to build a better future. The current crisis obliges us to re-plan our journey, to set ourselves new rules and to discover new forms of commitment, to build on positive experiences and to reject negative ones. The crisis thus becomes an opportunity for discernment, in which to shape a new vision for the future. In this spirit, with confidence rather than resignation, it is appropriate to address the difficulties of the present time.

22. Today the picture of development has many overlapping layers. The actors and the causes in both underdevelopment and development are manifold, the faults and the merits are differentiated. This fact should prompt us to liberate ourselves from ideologies, which often oversimplify reality in artificial ways, and it should lead us to examine objectively the full human dimension of the problems. As John Paul II has already observed, the demarcation line between rich and poor countries is no longer as clear as it was at the time of Populorum Progressio[55]. The world's wealth is growing in absolute terms, but inequalities are on the increase. In rich countries, new sectors of society are succumbing to poverty and new forms of poverty are emerging. In poorer areas some groups enjoy a sort of “superdevelopment” of a wasteful and consumerist kind which forms an unacceptable contrast with the ongoing situations of dehumanizing deprivation. “The scandal of glaring inequalities”[56] continues. Corruption and illegality are unfortunately evident in the conduct of the economic and political class in rich countries, both old and new, as well as in poor ones. Among those who sometimes fail to respect the human rights of workers are large multinational companies as well as local producers. International aid has often been diverted from its proper ends, through irresponsible actions both within the chain of donors and within that of the beneficiaries. Similarly, in the context of immaterial or cultural causes of development and underdevelopment, we find these same patterns of responsibility reproduced. On the part of rich countries there is excessive zeal for protecting knowledge through an unduly rigid assertion of the right to intellectual property, especially in the field of health care. At the same time, in some poor countries, cultural models and social norms of behaviour persist which hinder the process of development.

-Benedict XVI, Caritas in Veritate
 
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brewmama

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Christ and the ideology of vulture capitalism are inherently incompatible.


You still haven't answered my questions.

And capitalism has been the single force in enriching millions of people, more so than any other system, so if you were really interested in the poor you would not attack it so much.
 
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mark46

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You still haven't answered my questions.

And capitalism has been the single force in enriching millions of people, more so than any other system, so if you were really interested in the poor you would not attack it so much.

You are correct. Capitalism, as practiced in Europe and the US, should not be so criticized. However, unregulated capitalism is a disaster for the middle class and the poor.

OUR system (that of the US and Europe) is capitalism that is regulated, and one that provides for many, many services, and safety nets for the middle class and the poor. Most developed countries have adopted much of our system.

In Europe, the system is called "democratic socialism" to distinguish itself from the National Socialism of the fascists and the communist socialism of Russia and China. In the US, we almost never use the word "socialism" in a positive way. Of course, our policies are very similar to those of Western Europe. Most of the planks of US Socialist Party of 1912 have long ago become integral parts of our structure.

The US is currently in huge political fight over how little the middle class and poor should get in government services. One side wants higher taxes and more services. The other wants lower taxes and fewer services. And before we argue about government waste, the two largest programs (Social Security and Medicare) have a very low percentage of dollars used in administrative costs.
 
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brewmama

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You are correct. Capitalism, as practiced in Europe and the US, should not be so criticized. However, unregulated capitalism is a disaster for the middle class and the poor.

OUR system (that of the US and Europe) is capitalism that is regulated, and one that provides for many, many services, and safety nets for the middle class and the poor. Most developed countries have adopted much of our system.

In Europe, the system is called "democratic socialism" to distinguish itself from the National Socialism of the fascists and the communist socialism of Russia and China. In the US, we almost never use the word "socialism" in a positive way. Of course, our policies are very similar to those of Western Europe. Most of the planks of US Socialist Party of 1912 have long ago become integral parts of our structure.

The US is currently in huge political fight over how little the middle class and poor should get in government services. One side wants higher taxes and more services. The other wants lower taxes and fewer services. And before we argue about government waste, the two largest programs (Social Security and Medicare) have a very low percentage of dollars used in administrative costs.

So you're ignoring all the countries in Asia that have been lifted out of poverty by capitalism? And also that the more regulation and socialism that is introduced, the less the economy grows?

"...Most of the credit, however, must go to capitalism and free trade, for they enable economies to grow—and it was growth, principally, that has eased destitution.

Poverty rates started to collapse towards the end of the 20th century largely because developing-country growth accelerated, from an average annual rate of 4.3% in 1960-2000 to 6% in 2000-10. Around two-thirds of poverty reduction within a country comes from growth."

The world?s next great leap forward: Towards the end of poverty | The Economist
 
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St Antony

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You are correct. Capitalism, as practiced in Europe and the US, should not be so criticized. However, unregulated capitalism is a disaster for the middle class and the poor.

OUR system (that of the US and Europe) is capitalism that is regulated, and one that provides for many, many services, and safety nets for the middle class and the poor. Most developed countries have adopted much of our system.

In Europe, the system is called "democratic socialism" to distinguish itself from the National Socialism of the fascists and the communist socialism of Russia and China. In the US, we almost never use the word "socialism" in a positive way. Of course, our policies are very similar to those of Western Europe. Most of the planks of US Socialist Party of 1912 have long ago become integral parts of our structure.

The US is currently in huge political fight over how little the middle class and poor should get in government services. One side wants higher taxes and more services. The other wants lower taxes and fewer services. And before we argue about government waste, the two largest programs (Social Security and Medicare) have a very low percentage of dollars used in administrative costs.

There is no difference in the philosophy of democratic socialism from the other kinds of socialism, only a difference in the means used to get there. All 3 socialisms derive from the teachings of Karl Marx who hated Christianity, thought it was the opiate of the masses, and desired that it be eliminated as an influence on socialist countries.

Reasonable arguments can be made for higher taxes, lower taxes; higher welfare spending, less welfare spending, etc. I tend to believe that small government and a freer economy will protect the needy, while allowing the greatest number of people to thrive. That's just my personal opinion, however.

What the Left and Democrats never understand, however, is that regardless of their positions on taxes, social programs, the needy and other bread and butter issues, I won't even give their party a hearing as long as they promote a secularist agenda, promote feminism, promote abortion of demand, disparage Christians while excusing every (very real) transgressions of Muslims, inflame racial tensions in our country for political gain, deride anyone who disagrees with them as stupid, racist, backward, bigoted, etc., and generally promote a despicable social climate and political environment in our country.

For one I agree with the Left that inheritance taxes and the minimum wage should be raised rather than lowered, but because of all of the above, you don't have a prayer of getting my support even on issues where I agree with you.
 
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mark46

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For one I agree with the Left that inheritance taxes and the minimum wage should be raised rather than lowered, but because of all of the above, you don't have a prayer of getting my support even on issues where I agree with you.

You are free to vote with regard to which party supports you on issues of abortion, sexuality, and marriage. Catholics supported the Democratic Party for a century before the SUPREME COURT (appointed by Republicans) made their decision on Roe V Wade in 1972. Of course, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act had both been recently passed by the Democrats.

Catholics were the deciding factor in electing George Bush. They left the Democratic Party to cast this vote. Of course, Bush did absolutely NOTHING regarding the issues that the Church uses in convincing Catholics to vote for Bush because that is the way Jesus would vote (as was said from many Catholic pulpits). And the Middle Class suffered, the poor suffered. And the poor again sent their young men and women to war, twice.

So, go, vote based on abortion, sexuality, and gay rights. If a Republican is elected he will do NOTHING about these issues. Reagan didn't. Bush didn't. Or, you can come back to the party that most bishops and lay Catholics have supported for 100 years. The poor would benefit; the Middle Class would benefit.

As an aside, there will always be a minority of Catholics that side with the corporations and the rich (although there are rich in both parties). In 2008 and 2012, there were Catholics who voted Republican, a minority to be sure.
 
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MoonlessNight

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I'm just waiting for the usual suspects who always call for moderation and reasoned discussion when someone attacks the the democrats to arrive in this thread. I'm sure that they will say that calling "republicatholicism" a "caner on the Body of Christ" is a bit beyond the pale of polite discussion and unproductive for helping people of differing viewpoints to understand each other.
 
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Tallguy88

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I'm just waiting for the usual suspects who always call for moderation and reasoned discussion when someone attacks the the democrats to arrive in this thread. I'm sure that they will say that calling "republicatholicism" a "caner on the Body of Christ" is a bit beyond the pale of polite discussion and unproductive for helping people of differing viewpoints to understand each other.

It is pretty inflammatory.
 
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Rhamiel

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I'm just waiting for the usual suspects who always call for moderation and reasoned discussion when someone attacks the the democrats to arrive in this thread. I'm sure that they will say that calling "republicatholicism" a "caner on the Body of Christ" is a bit beyond the pale of polite discussion and unproductive for helping people of differing viewpoints to understand each other.

from what I have seen, those devoted to the Left are far more intolerant then the average republican

I am glad that not all Democrats are like that.

I have said this many times before on these forums
I am conservative, I support conservative fiscal positions
but I do understand that there are many good Catholics, who are pious and wise, who have far more liberal ideas when it comes to the economy

I am a bit tired of the mischaracterization
ANY call for reform is of a bloated welfare system that has created a perpetually dependent class is met with shrill shrieks of "you just want to let them starve to death!"
look at the crime and poverty of Chicago and Detroit, cities that have been under Democratic domination for decades, am I really such a bad Catholic for seeing this and thinking "hey, maybe Democratic policies hurt poor black families?"
like I am not even saying that I am 100% right, Chicago has about 2.7 million people in it, and they have about as many murders as all of Ohio that has over 11 million people in it(2013 stats, Ohio 455, Chicago 415). in 2012 Chicago had 500 murders....
and these are in cities and states that have been solidly Democrat for decades

as far as I have seen, very very very few Catholics are advocating total laissez faire Capitalism
and those who do advocate for that, they are wrong
 
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Fish and Bread

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ANY call for reform is of a bloated welfare system that has created a perpetually dependent class is met with shrill shrieks of "you just want to let them starve to death!"

No one gets rich off our welfare system. We barely have one. Traditional welfare where the federal governments mails poor people checks with no preconditions is gone as of the 1990s. There is temporary help for people seeking jobs with caps on how long you can be on there. Long-term help with day to day living requires you to be old or disabled, and typically provides less than a poverty level income. There are food stamps that barely offer anything in direct food benefits, with rigid constant paperwork requirements and some states that limit eligibility for households without children to 3 months out of every 3 years or something like that, and at least one state that makes people reapply every single month for scratch.

And, yes, cutting food stamps does take food out of people's mouths, and some of them go hungry every time it's done. The logical consequence of cutting them is that some people will starve to death. If you oppose allowing people to starve to death, then you should support expanding food stamps, not cutting them.

And we've shown with the Affordable Care Act and it's Medicaid expansion and subsidies to help people buy private insurance in some states has results in fewer uninsured people. That's just a fact. It also stopped allowing insurance companies to reject people with pre-existing conditions. So, there are some folks who will live who would have otherwise died. There are some folks who will have better medical outcomes and avoid needless suffering because they can get treated early and correctly when they otherwise wouldn't have been.

These programs save lives.

I think we ought to have a national minimum income of 15k a year. Just write everyone a check. If you aren't working, you get it. If you are working, and make less than 20k from work, you get it and can add it to what you make at work. Then have a single-payer health care system like the NHS in the United Kingdom where everyone is just covered. No Democrat will propose all that because they aren't that far to the left, but that's what I'd do. Everyone gets to survive and then there is still those old capitalistic incentives for people who can do more to do more and lead better more luxurious lives, but we'd get everyone the basics, which in my view should be a basic human right.
 
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St Antony

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I think we ought to have a national minimum income of 15k a year. Just write everyone a check. If you aren't working, you get it. If you are working, and make less than 20k from work, you get it and can add it to what you make at work. Then have a single-payer health care system like the NHS in the United Kingdom where everyone is just covered.
Really?? No one works now; imagine what our inner cities and Appalachian areas would be like then. Part of people not working is due to government policies that ship jobs overseas, but part is due to incentives. If you pay people for not working, they won't work, period.

There is dignity with working a steady job and supporting your family. You feel like you are accomplishing something even if it's nothing out of the ordinary. The Church should support policies that insure no one goes hungry, without shelter or without clothing, but discouraging work for people who are able to work is not, and should not be, a Catholic position.

With health care, I'm in favor of a program where everyone has access; the trick is finding a system that works for everyone and that we can afford. I only opposed the ACA because it required Catholics and others to provide birth control, access to abortion and other services that are deeply offensive to me personally and to God. Had Obama and the Democrats been willing to avoid these divisive issues in the ACA, it would have much broader support.
 
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St Antony

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I think we ought to have a national minimum income of 15k a year. Just write everyone a check. If you aren't working, you get it. If you are working, and make less than 20k from work, you get it and can add it to what you make at work. Then have a single-payer health care system like the NHS in the United Kingdom where everyone is just covered. No Democrat will propose all that because they aren't that far to the left, but that's what I'd do. Everyone gets to survive and then there is still those old capitalistic incentives for people who can do more to do more and lead better more luxurious lives, but we'd get everyone the basics, which in my view should be a basic human right.



Really?? No one works now; imagine what our inner cities and Appalachian areas would be like then. Part of people not working is due to government policies that ship jobs overseas, but part is due to incentives. If you pay people for not working, they won't work, period.

There is dignity with working a steady job and supporting your family. You feel like you are accomplishing something even if it's nothing out of the ordinary. The Church should support policies that insure no one goes hungry, without shelter or without clothing, but discouraging work for people who are able to work is not, and should not be, a Catholic position.

With health care, I'm in favor of a program where everyone has access; the trick is finding a system that works for everyone and that we can afford. I only opposed the ACA because it required Catholics and others to provide birth control, access to abortion and other services that are deeply offensive to me personally and to God. Had Obama and the Democrats been willing to avoid these divisive issues in the ACA, it would have much broader support.
 
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Fantine

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I don't think that it was "Democratic policies" that exacerbated poverty in the inner cities.

I think it was white flight and the move to the suburbs. As blacks and ethnic minorities became more successful, the ones that could also moved to the suburbs. Eventually the companies moved to the suburbs, along the interstates, because everyone wanted to drive to work and park in a big parking lot in front of the office.

The economically successful families that chose to stay in the city sent their children to private schools (sending them to public school would have been a deal breaker for most). The schools had poor students with many needs--learning, economic, social--and not many people interested in financing them.

I saw this when I lived in St. Louis in a beautiful suburb in west county. The "county" had grown to have four times as many residents as the city. The businesses moved to the suburbs. The city was empty by comparison--and since the suburbs didn't pay taxes to the city, the city really suffered.

Some cities have a commuter tax--St. Louis and NYC did--but it is much, much lower than the resident tax (something which drives yet more workers away).
 
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St Antony

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I don't think that it was "Democratic policies" that exacerbated poverty in the inner cities.

I think it was white flight and the move to the suburbs. As blacks and ethnic minorities became more successful, the ones that could also moved to the suburbs. Eventually the companies moved to the suburbs, along the interstates, because everyone wanted to drive to work and park in a big parking lot in front of the office.

The economically successful families that chose to stay in the city sent their children to private schools (sending them to public school would have been a deal breaker for most). The schools had poor students with many needs--learning, economic, social--and not many people interested in financing them.

I saw this when I lived in St. Louis in a beautiful suburb in west county. The "county" had grown to have four times as many residents as the city. The businesses moved to the suburbs. The city was empty by comparison--and since the suburbs didn't pay taxes to the city, the city really suffered.

Some cities have a commuter tax--St. Louis and NYC did--but it is much, much lower than the resident tax (something which drives yet more workers away).

Yes, but why do the successful families and businesses flee to the suburbs? The breakdown in the family in the inner city (80% of black births are illegitimate) and the corresponding rise in violent crime, drug use, etc. has made these areas very inhospitable. Birth control, marriage, divorce, illegitimacy, absent fathers (who are often in jail) are not just theoretical concerns for Catholics and society. They have a real and devastating affect on people; disproportionally among people with the least education and socioeconomic levels. In a sense, the genie is out of the bottle. We can't erase the last 50 years and I have no idea how to fix these failed communities.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Yes, but why do the successful families and businesses flee to the suburbs? The breakdown in the family in the inner city (80% of black births are illegitimate) and the corresponding rise in violent crime, drug use, etc. has made these areas very inhospitable. Birth control, marriage, divorce, illegitimacy, absent fathers (who are often in jail) are not just theoretical concerns for Catholics and society. They have a real and devastating affect on people; disproportionally among people with the least education and socioeconomic levels. In a sense, the genie is out of the bottle. We can't erase the last 50 years and I have no idea how to fix these failed communities.
In socialism, you're allowed to ignore people's reactions to government policies when evaluating the success of those policies, even if those reactions were predictable and natural.

Nearly every argument I have seen for socialist policies has assumed that absent this one change in government policy, the economy would remain static. If we require that everyone get access to health insurance, they will get it at the same quality and cost as when access was restricted. If we institute rent control, it will still be as easy to find an apartment to move into. If we increase the tax on cigarettes we can calculate to the penny how much money we will make, because people will not stop smoking or (as it more often happens) will not purchase their cigarettes from a state with lower taxes. And on and on.
 
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mark46

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In socialism, you're allowed to ignore people's reactions to government policies when evaluating the success of those policies, even if those reactions were predictable and natural.

Nearly every argument I have seen for socialist policies has assumed that absent this one change in government policy, the economy would remain static. If we require that everyone get access to health insurance, they will get it at the same quality and cost as when access was restricted. If we institute rent control, it will still be as easy to find an apartment to move into. If we increase the tax on cigarettes we can calculate to the penny how much money we will make, because people will not stop smoking or (as it more often happens) will not purchase their cigarettes from a state with lower taxes. And on and on.

This discussion has nothing to do with socialism. In almost every developed country in the world, ALL the people have the right to health case, education, maternal leave, and lots of other parts of life;liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
For most of Europe this includes child care and college. The US provides none of these as a right. The US has chosen to put a higher percentage of its citizens in jail than any other developed country. We are the only developed country that regularly uses the death penalty.
 
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