Is religious conversion moral?

[Zaac]

That wouldn't be bad, that implies that you wouldn't follow someone around preaching to them until they give up their religion to join yours. It has the feel of something with freewill attached to it. Telling someone your truth is ok, pushing it at them against their will is not.

Eve, it's really very simple. Jesus Christ must reveal Himself. Christians do not have the power to convert anyone. That's a Jesus thing.

I can only tell people what He says. And frankly, that's no more forcing anything on them as is the profanity and increasingly salacious content of tv is forced on me. If a person doesn't want to listen, he doesn't have to. Likewise, if I don't like the content of a tv program, I can change the channel.

 

[morningstar2651]

Christians don't try to convert anyone.

They try to convert me. Of course...they call this "witnessing".

We give people God's Word.

What if we don't want it?

...God ain't immoral.

He lies & kills in the Bible...if His laws govern Christian morality then He is immoral according to them.

And Jesus Christ is the standard for what is right.

That's your standard -- not mine...and I do not recall Jesus asking people to worship him...the people came to him of their own free will.

Why on earth would I look outside what is right to accommodate what somebody else thinks is right?

To spread love rather than hate? To be respectful of others?

I'd go so far as to say that if you didn't try to convert them, you're acting immoral.

Going against the will of an innocent is moral? How do you justify this?

Should his rights be curtailed just to avail you of yours?

The question is one of morality, not legality. He has every right to preach as a woman has the right to have an abortion...but I'm sure that you probably find at least one of these two immoral.

Jesus Christ must reveal Himself.

He's hidden? If he must reveal himself then you must not have great faith in his ability to do so if you try to reveal him to others instead of letting him reveal himself...

Christians do not have the power to convert anyone.

Then perhaps they should stop trying?

Likewise, if I don't like the content of a tv program, I can change the channel.

*Morningstar tries to change Zaac to the Hindu channel and fails miserably*

...bad analogy.

 

[thomas100]

It's tough to have a lot of sympathy for you morningstar. If you're so fed up with Christianity and attempts to persuade you otherwise, why spend so much time on CF ? Isn't there a PaganForum.com somewhere ? I think your behaviour indicates that really you've not given up on Christianity yet.

 

[Thirst_For_Knowledge]

It's tough to have a lot of sympathy for you morningstar. If you're so fed up with Christianity and attempts to persuade you otherwise, why spend so much time on CF ? Isn't there a PaganForum.com somewhere ? I think your behaviour indicates that really you've not given up on Christianity yet.

Don't be sure that people come here because they haven't given up yet. I come here because I like debate, and this is a great place for debate, with many people who oppose my side. That is why I come here.

On most other boards for debate, they are made up of people who mostly are on my side of the issue, hence its funnessishness is taken away.

 

[Zaac]

They try to convert me. Of course...they call this "witnessing".

Witnessing ain't gonna convert you.

What if we don't want it?

Then walk away. You seem to be in control of yourself enough to do that.

He lies & kills in the Bible...if His laws govern Christian morality then He is immoral according to them.

Show and prove one instance of a lie. I can guarantee to you before you even attempt that you just don't understand what is being said.

That's your standard -- not mine...and I do not recall Jesus asking people to worship him...the people came to him of their own free will.

As I said, nobody is trying to convince you. If you don't want truth, you don't have to receive it.

To spread love rather than hate? To be respectful of others?

I'm going to borrow a trick from your book. That's your standard of love, not God's.
Now as for being respectful, if you feel disrespected when I give you the truth, that's on you. But know for sure that I am not called to respect that which is against Christ. I expect there to be friction because light can have no fellowship with darkness.

Going against the will of an innocent is moral? How do you justify this?

What is this, Charmed or something?

 

[morningstar2651]

It's tough to have a lot of sympathy for you morningstar.

That's not what I asked for.

If you're so fed up with Christianity and attempts to persuade you otherwise, why spend so much time on CF?

I'm not fed up with Christianity. I come here to debate and to learn.

Isn't there a PaganForum.com somewhere?

Yes -- I don't have an account there though. I do post on several other pagan boards though. Just google for morningstar2651 if you don't believe me.

I think your behaviour indicates that really you've not given up on Christianity yet.

...buh?

Witnessing ain't gonna convert you.

No...it won't...unfortunately people haven't stopped trying and it's annoying.

Then walk away.

I shouldn't be unwelcome on the streets...I shouldn't have to walk away.

Show and prove one instance of a lie.

Have three.
Jer.20:7 "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."
Ezek.14:9 "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." 2 Th.2:11 "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

As I said, nobody is trying to convince you.

Yes they are.

If you don't want truth, you don't have to receive it.

If I don't want to be harassed -- I shouldn't be.

That's your standard of love, not God's.

Love thy neighbor as thyself.
&
Matthew 7:12
John 13:34

What is this, Charmed or something?

Actually, it's ChristianForums.com, and you just dodged my question by asking an irrelevant one.

 

[thomas100]

You can pick apart everybody else's posts into sentences if you like, that won't change the fact that it's strange to object about Christians trying to convert you and to also frequent a christian forum.

 

[morningstar2651]

You can pick apart everybody else's posts into sentences if you like

Thank you for permission...I think I will.

that won't change the fact that it's strange to object about Christians trying to convert you and to also frequent a christian forum.

I enjoy debating...debating religious beliefs...debating politics...wait...did you just call me strange!? Thank you...I guess?

 

[scraparcs]

And those that don't want their children to have any exposure to religion? how would you feel if satanist were on the street corner or pagans would you be okay with that as well?

Certainly they have as much right to be out there as Christians do. Not a problem to me (then again, I tune them all out anyway, Christian as well as non-Christian)!

 

[mepalmer3]

I don't think it is -- I see it as religious bigotry.

I don't even really think it's a part of Christian doctrine...isn't Christianity about personal salvation through Christ?

It's a difficult position to hold that christian doctrine doesn't involve spreading christianity when the main guy, Jesus, went around to people who previously didn't believe in Him to spread the good news and basically ask people to believe in Him.

I'm really a bit surprised in how long this thread has gone on.

Clearly christians have quite a bit of belief in christianity as being true. That's true by definition. So the original question is like saying, "Is it moral to tell people the truth?" Or "Is it moral to ask people to believe that you're telling the truth?" Moral relativists aside, those who believe in an objective morality can agree I believe that telling the truth by and large is a morally right thing to do. And conversely, deceiving someone is morally wrong. We can all agree on that, can't we?

Since christianity says there really is something that's right and something that's wrong, and that we should be honest, clearly there's a precedence for telling people what you believe to be the truth. Further, even if all people think they see different truths, then the question becomes, "Is it moral for someone to say their opinion? Or is it moral for someone to try to sway someone to their opinion?" This is a pretty fundamental thing that people have been doing since the beginning of history.

Also, If there is no real objective right/wrong, then the question, "Is it moral" doesn't really make any sense as you're talking about personal preferences. But if objective right/wrong is real, then the question does have a real answer, as would a math problem. So the question comes down to, "Is it moral to try to get people to do their math correctly?"

 

[theywhosowintears]

No, that isn't what it is all about.
The Great Commission
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.


Matthew 28:19, 20 RSV

Yeah that. True words. That is what Christianity is about... look at it from our point of view... If someone was about to walk off of a cliff...would you warn them? That is what being a Christian is about... We are simply trying to let people know about a fate that some don't see coming.

Peace.

 

[AngelusSax]

Jer.20:7 "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."

Except this was Jeremiah's complaint to the Lord because of what people areound him were saying about him, and because stuff that was prophesied had not happened yet. This doesn't prove God lied. It only proves that JEremiah thought God had deceived him at the time.

Yet later Jeremiah realizes this isn't the case, and he says that it is his persecutors that will fail and be thoroughly disgraced (verse 11-12)

Ezek.14:9 "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet."

Now, show us where it says something like "And I, the Lord, will make sure to do this."

This statement (the one you quoted) simply says that a prophet can only say what God wants, so lies will come from God if there are any... but it does NOT say that there will be lies.

2 Th.2:11 "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

This is in the passage which describes, basically, the events leading up to the Second Coming of Christ. There's a reason God would send a powerful delusion... the people had already rejected Him beforeheand, so He would show his rejection of them because of this.

The powerful delusion is the false messiah, performing "miracles" and whatnot. This is simply saying God will allow the people to be deceived, and it was Paul's understanding that God would even send the deceiver, as a way to help weed out those who are rejecting the Word of Truth, which died on the Cross to save us from our sins.

 

[morningstar2651]

It's a difficult position to hold that christian doctrine doesn't involve spreading christianity when the main guy, Jesus, went around to people who previously didn't believe in Him to spread the good news and basically ask people to believe in Him.

Show me bible verses where he asks...nay...commands people to worship him.

Clearly christians have quite a bit of belief in christianity as being true.

I'd sure hope so...it'd be kinda silly to be Christian if you thought your religion were a lie.

That's true by definition.

No...being the majority view isn't a requirement to be true.

By telling me that you're right -- you're trying to say that I'm wrong.

So the original question is like saying, "Is it moral to tell people the truth?" Or "Is it moral to ask people to believe that you're telling the truth?" Moral relativists aside, those who believe in an objective morality can agree I believe that telling the truth by and large is a morally right thing to do. And conversely, deceiving someone is morally wrong. We can all agree on that, can't we?

No...the original question was "Is religious conversion moral?". The original question was not directed at Christians only. Unless you regard all religions as being truth you may wish to rethink that argument.

Since christianity says there really is something that's right and something that's wrong, and that we should be honest, clearly there's a precedence for telling people what you believe to be the truth.

I don't want your "one truth". Don't give it to me.

This is a pretty fundamental thing that people have been doing since the beginning of history.

Does this make it right? People have murdered and raped since the beginning of history and it doesn't seem to be too popular with Christians today.

So the question comes down to, "Is it moral to try to get people to do their math correctly?"

Is it moral to give someone the answer to a math problem without letting them do the math themselves?

 

[morningstar2651]

You must find my verses of lying inadequate then...what of murder...God has killed...and according to Christian morals is therefore immoral...but what does it matter if He is moral or not? He's not the one harassing me.

 

[AngelusSax]

You must find my verses of lying inadequate then...what of murder...God has killed...and according to Christian morals is therefore immoral...but what does it matter if He is moral or not? He's not the one harassing me.

The killing of someone as a just punishment for the worship of false idols is not murder. Muder is killing for killing's sake, there is no motivation of either self-defense or punishment.

And as supreme arbiter of all the universe, I'd say God can mete out any punishment he wants.

Show me bible verses where he asks...nay...commands people to worship him.

John 3:18 comes to mind.

 

[Zaac]

I shouldn't be unwelcome on the streets...I shouldn't have to walk away.

SO why should your right to feel welcomed on the street outweigh their right to free speech on the same street?

Have three.
Jer.20:7 "O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived."
Ezek.14:9 "And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet." 2 Th.2:11 "For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."

In Jeriamiah 20:7, he is deceived because God allowed him to be deceived. Same in Ezekiel and 2 Thessalonians.

As we have said before, God is perfectly good. But He can and will use that which is evil to accomplish His Will. He does not deceive in the sense that you're trying to make it. If He could, He couldn't be God. When He says I the Lord have deceived that prophet, it means nothing more than He, God, allowed for the prophet to be deceived. And the prophet could not have been deceived if He, God, had not allowed it.

God controls what that which is evil can do. And He can allow it to do whatever HE pleases to acomplish His perfect will.

Yes they are.

then politely tell them no and walk away if you don't want to be bothered.

If I don't want to be harassed -- I shouldn't be.

If you're feeling harassed, then call the authorities.

And I don't dodge questions. I answer the ones that the Holy Spirit directs me to answer.

 

[thomas100]

I enjoy debating...debating religious beliefs...debating politics...wait...did you just call me strange!? Thank you...I guess?

I called your position strange. And I still think that it is. You enjoy debating religion but only providing that other people don't try and convince you that their views are correct ? In fact not only do you not want them to try and convince you but you want to call them immoral if they do. Strange indeed.

 

[hernyaccent]

I called your position strange. And I still think that it is. You enjoy debating religion but only providing that other people don't try and convince you that their views are correct ? In fact not only do you not want them to try and convince you but you want to call them immoral if they do. Strange indeed.

Debate- To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

Your engaging in debate with morning ( whom you know will never convince you of his arguements) why do you bother?

 

[mepalmer3]

There seems to be a gross misunderstanding of my post.

Show me bible verses where he asks...nay...commands people to worship him.

I think this is very clearly understood by any christian theologian.

No...being the majority view isn't a requirement to be true.
By telling me that you're right -- you're trying to say that I'm wrong.

I had said that being christian means that you believe in the christian creeds. Christian legitimately means something, it's a useful word. I didn't say it truly was accurate, I simply said it's what this group of people believe to be the truth. Similarly an evolutionist is someone who believes that evolution is accurate of reality. And yes again, just because the majority agrees with it, doesn't make it the truth. But I was talking purely of a group's perceived notion of the truth and the moral law that we seem to live by that says that we ought to purposefully tell the truth and NOT intentionally try to deceive others.

No...the original question was "Is religious conversion moral?". The original question was not directed at Christians only. Unless you regard all religions as being truth you may wish to rethink that argument.

I don't want your "one truth". Don't give it to me.

Does this make it right? People have murdered and raped since the beginning of history and it doesn't seem to be too popular with Christians today.

Again though, the moral issue isn't religious conversion, it's a matter of honesty/dishonesty. Clearly most religions and worldviews are in conflict about what they profess to be the truth. So a great deal of people, while engaging in trying to get people to accept their worldview or religion are trying to spread "lies". This very post in a way is doing the same sort of thing, trying to get people to accept a certain viewpoint (ie, that we ought to not try to convert people to our way of thinking).

Is it moral to give someone the answer to a math problem without letting them do the math themselves?

This analogy is a bad analogy. The analogy is more akin to that of a teacher, or to that of the school system. We don't criticize the school system for trying to teach our kids. It teaches people how to do math, and it gives a large set of examples and their solutions. But it doesn't solve all moral problems, in that the axioms need to be understood and accepted, then basic logic can help people come to understand the moral answer. And further, christianity doesn't do the math for anybody, it says that there is a right answer when you do math. It says that it really is moral/good to value a person. One of it's most central claims is that "God loves us so much that he gave his only son to die for us, and whoever believes in him will not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16

And now I'll end on this final question... if the gospels are true, if there is a God and he came to bring truth, love, forgiveness to the world, then how can someone not try to tell others about it? The question becomes, is it moral to intentionally not tell someone something that will save their life or allow them to live a more fulfilling life?

 

[thomas100]

Debate- To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.

Your engaging in debate with morning ( whom you know will never convince you of his arguements) why do you bother?

Here is my opposing point . He may never convince me of his arguments, but I don't see the logic in calling me immoral for trying to convince him of my points ?