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Is predestination about the destination or about the path to it?

Xeno.of.athens

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The debate between Protestants regarding predestination has persisted for nearly five centuries, with neither side conceding. Each believes they have scriptural backing. This dichotomy likely extends to Christian forums, where some argue for free will while others argue for the bondage of the will, each supported by numerous scriptural verses and interpretations. The question remains: Is it the final destination that is predestined, leaving the path open to free will choices, or is the path itself predestined, allowing no deviation by free will until the final destination is reached?
 
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Clare73

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The debate between Protestants regarding predestination has persisted for nearly five centuries, with neither side conceding. Each believes they have scriptural backing. This dichotomy likely extends to Christian forums, where some argue for free will while others argue for the bondage of the will, each supported by numerous scriptural verses and interpretations. The question remains: Is it the final destination that is predestined, leaving the path open to free will choices, or is the path itself predestined, allowing no deviation by free will until the final destination is reached?
Your premise is in error in two areas:
1) "free will,"
2) allowing no deviation by free will.
 
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trophy33

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Predestination means "destination decided beforehand".

If we are talking about the path and all the details in life and in the universe, the correct term is predetermination.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The debate between Protestants regarding predestination has persisted for nearly five centuries, with neither side conceding. Each believes they have scriptural backing. This dichotomy likely extends to Christian forums, where some argue for free will while others argue for the bondage of the will, each supported by numerous scriptural verses and interpretations. The question remains: Is it the final destination that is predestined, leaving the path open to free will choices, or is the path itself predestined, allowing no deviation by free will until the final destination is reached?
The whole Calvinist/Armenian thing just isn't my thing, in either direction. Maybe I was predestined not to care about it. Or I chose not to care. I donno. God is good.
 
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Clare73

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Those who accept God's Love (forgiveness, mercy, grace, charity) are predestined to eternal life. The autonomous free will choice is in the accepting and the predestination is with those who choose.
Except for that part where Jesus states that
1) no one can come to Jesus unless God draws them (Jn 6:65), (no choosing out of the blue sky on your own)
2) and all whom the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37), (will choose, no autonomous free-will-choice rejecting)
3) and all who come to Jesus will never perish (Jn 6:39).
 
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Grip Docility

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The debate between Protestants regarding predestination has persisted for nearly five centuries, with neither side conceding. Each believes they have scriptural backing. This dichotomy likely extends to Christian forums, where some argue for free will while others argue for the bondage of the will, each supported by numerous scriptural verses and interpretations. The question remains: Is it the final destination that is predestined, leaving the path open to free will choices, or is the path itself predestined, allowing no deviation by free will until the final destination is reached?
My personal opinion on this is that Jesus Christ is the ultimate Revelation of God. God the Son reveals exactly how the Father wants to be understood and to go beyond that, in my opinion is ignoring the entire Majesty of Jesus. John 5:39 binds the presence of Jesus Christ to the pinnacle of all scripture. I think the entire discussion about pre-destination goes far outside the scope of intended scriptural discussion. Of all Christian discussions, I am convinced that this one can stop at our precious Incarnation, Jesus Christ being Pre-Destined by God. Beyond that is a fair we don't need to discuss that. It's a genuine mystery. How God chooses to accomplish things of that matter is beyond our capability of reasoning. I keep it at Jesus and remember Love your neighbor as yourself with the hope that each unbeliever may be one more act of received Love away from becoming a believer.
 
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ozso

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The debate between Protestants regarding predestination has persisted for nearly five centuries, with neither side conceding. Each believes they have scriptural backing. This dichotomy likely extends to Christian forums, where some argue for free will while others argue for the bondage of the will, each supported by numerous scriptural verses and interpretations. The question remains: Is it the final destination that is predestined, leaving the path open to free will choices, or is the path itself predestined, allowing no deviation by free will until the final destination is reached?
I remember with one Christian forum I was on a long time ago, discussion of the subject of free will was forbidden because it had become so contentious.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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Except for that part where Jesus states that
1) no one can come to Jesus unless God draws them (Jn 6:65), (no choosing out of the blue sky on your own)
2) and all whom the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37), (will choose, no autonomous free-will-choice rejecting)
3) and all who come to Jesus will never perish (Jn 6:39).
Just as people can attract others through advertising, God could theoretically draw a person with similar methods. Advertising is not coercive; it simply presents a message. If an individual accepts an advertisement's message, they may freely choose to purchase the product if they decide to do so.

If individuals are morally autonomous, then the act of giving, as implied by your post, cannot occur in the literal sense. God may guide a person towards His Son, allowing them to freely decide to unite with Jesus (in a spiritual sense) by willingly acknowledging Him as their Lord. This process is devoid of any coercion.

Those who abide in Christ are guaranteed eternal life in fellowship with Him, without any implication of compulsion.
 
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HTacianas

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Just as people can attract others through advertising, God could theoretically draw a person with similar methods. Advertising is not coercive; it simply presents a message. If an individual accepts an advertisement's message, they may freely choose to purchase the product if they decide to do so.

If individuals are morally autonomous, then the act of giving, as implied by your post, cannot occur in the literal sense. God may guide a person towards His Son, allowing them to freely decide to unite with Jesus (in a spiritual sense) by willingly acknowledging Him as their Lord. This process is devoid of any coercion.

Those who abide in Christ are guaranteed eternal life in fellowship with Him, without any implication of compulsion.
That may well be a good way to put it. To say you have been predestined to be put on the path.

My own view on predestination is if you read the bible cover to cover you will resolve that God has predestined Himself to have a people. Who exactly that people are is fluid. If you look at yourself and say I am predestined you may not be right, but if you look at some other person and say that they are predestined you may not be right either. But if you look at God and say that He is predestined you would be right all the time.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I've long stated that the night my father died he appeared in my room.

At one point the conversation went as follows -

Father; "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choic!".

Me (atheist at the time); - "That can't be right!"

Father; "Oh, it's right all right! You can see that from here!" (where he was standing, presumably in front of the judgement seat).

He obviously could see things I wasn't allowed to see. When I turned around to see what he was gazing at all I could see was the wall.

But later in the exchange he admitted "I was WILLING!" (to keep doing the things he did that got him condemned and to keep doing them for a long time - I put up with his deliberate cruelty for 20 years).

But the bit about "always (was) doomed" and not "really having any choice" still sticks in my craw.

If we take St. Peter, he was an ordinary fisherman just going about his job - sailing out, puting out the nets, hauling the fish in, sorting them out, scaling them, guting them, cleaning them, washing down the boat, and whatever else they did.

All of a sudden God in the Flesh walks up and calls him to become a fisher of men.

Peter was confronted with a choice. But everything up to that point was God's doing. Peter had nothing to do with it. Why Peter rather than one of the other thousands of Jews alive at the time? Why not a Greek with their regret over killing Socrates and with their strong philosophical base? Why not a figure of power in Rome?

Peter had the choice to say yes or no. But he had nothing to do with being called in the first place.

I don't know what God is doing.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I've long stated that the night my father died he appeared in my room.

At one point the conversation went as follows -

Father; "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choic!".

Me (atheist at the time); - "That can't be right!"

Father; "Oh, it's right all right! You can see that from here!" (where he was standing, presumably in front of the judgement seat).

He obviously could see things I wasn't allowed to see. When I turned around to see what he was gazing at all I could see was the wall.

But later in the exchange he admitted "I was WILLING!" (to keep doing the things he did that got him condemned and to keep doing them for a long time - I put up with his deliberate cruelty for 20 years).

But the bit about "always (was) doomed" and not "really having any choice" still sticks in my craw.

If we take St. Peter, he was an ordinary fisherman just going about his job - sailing out, puting out the nets, hauling the fish in, sorting them out, scaling them, guting them, cleaning them, washing down the boat, and whatever else they did.

All of a sudden God in the Flesh walks up and calls him to become a fisher of men.

Peter was confronted with a choice. But everything up to that point was God's doing. Peter had nothing to do with it. Why Peter rather than one of the other thousands of Jews alive at the time? Why not a Greek with their regret over killing Socrates and with their strong philosophical base? Why not a figure of power in Rome?

Peter had the choice to say yes or no. But he had nothing to do with being called in the first place.

I don't know what God is doing.
We might ponder Saint Peter's alternatives, such as remaining silent rather than denying Christ thrice, yet in the end, he did deny Christ, fulfilling the Lord's prophecy.

Is there a prophecy concerning you, me, or anyone else we know? If not, then we don't confront the dilemma that Saint Peter did. For us, the real question is which choice we will make and whether it aligns with godliness.
 
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Bob Crowley

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If we take St. Peter, he was an ordinary fisherman just going about his job - sailing out, puting out the nets, hauling the fish in, sorting them out, scaling them, guting them, cleaning them, washing down the boat, and whatever else they did.

All of a sudden God in the Flesh walks up and calls him to become a fisher of men.
Continuing on from my post #11 above, perhaps we should consider Judas Iscariot.

In John 6.70 Christ said "... Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”

and in John 17.12, Chist indicated "None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."

When Christ chose Judas, which is not detailed in the Bible, did Christ hear a voice say "This is the one who will betray you - he must be lost - choose him anyway..."?

Or did Christ in naive innocence choose Judas in good faith, despite the fact he knew what was going through a person's mind?

I ask this because I get the sense both Judas and my father were doomed from the outset. Obviously this disagrees with Catholic teaching that God predestines noone to perdition, but I've got my reasons for disagreeing with it.


God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

Granted my father persisted in a wilful turning away from God (mortal sin) and kept it up (as a non-believing Catholic). But at the same time he claimed he always was doomed and "didn't realy have any choice".

Did Judas "really have any choice?"
 
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Bobber

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When Christ chose Judas, which is not detailed in the Bible, did Christ hear a voice say "This is the one who will betray you - he must be lost - choose him anyway..."?

Or did Christ in naive innocence choose Judas in good faith, despite the fact he knew what was going through a person's mind?
I'm not sure I have the dynamics of all that took place figured out but I will say how it impacts me. I don't believe he was chosen as one who must be lost and he has had no option to have salvation. We must consider what Judas had already established himself as being BEFORE he was chosen. If he had pride in his heart by his own choosing and truly by his own choice was always resisting God then God chose him for again the character that Judas had chose to be. There still was no compelling force to make him do what he did even after he was chosen.

I ask this because I get the sense both Judas and my father were doomed from the outset.
I don't know anything about your father but assuming he was unsaved, we'd hope not there is nothing about Judas or anyone else which says they were doomed from the outset.
Did Judas "really have any choice?"
It could be the choices he made BEFORE he was chosen established his life going forward. To illustrate we all know someone who you down right know they'd NEVER, if they'd done wrong would apologize about anything. You KNOW they'll always seek to justify their actions. It's the cloth they've chosen to be cut out from. We all know people who would rather die then to admit they've been wrong.
 
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Bob Crowley

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Is there a prophecy concerning you, me, or anyone else we know? If not, then we don't confront the dilemma that Saint Peter did. For us, the real question is which choice we will make and whether it aligns with godliness.
Regarding personal prophecies - the night my father died he said "You'll become a Christian" and "You'll meet a pastor. You'll think he's great, but all he'll do is to discourage you even more!"

My father died in January 1979 and I became a Christian late in 1982. So that part was correct.

The pastor turned out to be the Presbyterian Pastor I met when I became a Christian. I still hold him in high respect, but he did discourage me. So that was correct.

Not long before I left his church due to getting married and moving away, and he died himself a few months later (so we effectively both left around the same time), he said he owed me an apology. I asked him why. He replied "You needed encouragement, and all I've done is to discourage you even more!"

I'd often discussed my father's death night apparition with him so I told him what my father said, and added "You've just quoted him back to me almost word for word!" That shook him and he blurted out "You really did see your father that night".

But the pastor was prophetic himself. Bear in mind he died in January 1992 so he wasn't around to influence any of these personal predictions but he said -

1. I'd become Catholic (circa 1996/97). He also said "After you become Catholic, there'll be an exposure of pedophilia in the church. And I think there's going to BE A LOT OF THEM". When I became Catholic I wasn't even thinking about his prediction but when the news started to hit the media fan I wasn't surprised as he'd warned me well before I became Catholic.
2. I'd become Diabetic (diagonosed 2005) and would take up hockey again for the exercise (2008).
3. There'd be a bit of a conspiracy against me at my then job. He said "You'll make a silly mistake and they'll use that to get rid of you." I made the "silly mistake" in 1995 and they used that to get rid of me.
4. I'd be doing a cleaning job for a short time, wouldn't like it much and "the Lord will just want you to hear about a ghost" (!) I did a cleaning job in 2006 for about 4 months (short time), didn't like it much and heard about a ghost (manager who committed suicide in the store back in the 1960's).
5. I'd be driving a cab at night but "would get sick of the drunks". After I had three of them throw up in the cab, I no longer drove at night (2005).

There were a couple of others which haven't happened yet.

He also predicted other things -

1. My sister would get leukemia and would not live long. (2005 aged 45).
2. His eldest son would have a severe health breakdown. (1996 or 97 - he had a severe stroke - I was becoming Catholic at about the same time).
3. There would be a second Gulf War, saying "The Americans will have had enough of Saddam Hussein. They'll get rid of him, but I think they will lose a FEW men the next time". The way he said FEW, it was obvious he meant more than a few.
4. A certain pastor would get hold of his church after he died and wreck it, "but he can't touch the people". Said pastor got hold of it after he died and wreckd it but couldn't touch the people most of whom left the Presbyterian Church altogether. I think of the 3 churces in his parish at that time only one is still viable.

Again there were other predictions, some of which have yet to be fulfilled.

Now - I didn't set out to get Diabetes; my sister didn't set out to get Leukemia; his son didn't set out to have a stroke; I didn't set out to do a cleaning job for a short time, not like it much and hear about a ghost; the 4500 US service men and women didn't set out to be any of the FEW who were "lost the next time"; I didn't set out to make a "silly mistake" and lose my job etc.

The only way he could know those things was because God was telling him.

So ... did I really have a choice about getting Diabetes; did his son have a choice about having a stroke; and did my sister have a choice about getting leukemia?
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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So ... did I really have a choice about getting Diabetes; did his son have a choice about having a stroke; and did my sister have a choice about getting leukemia?
With health issues one rarely has direct control over them so there isn't much of a choice in them.
 
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bling

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Except for that part where Jesus states that
1) no one can come to Jesus unless God draws them (Jn 6:65), (no choosing out of the blue sky on your own)
2) and all whom the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus (Jn 6:37), (will choose, no autonomous free-will-choice rejecting)
3) and all who come to Jesus will never perish (Jn 6:39).
We have some wonderful banquet parables which easily explain God’s selection method with added information, yet fitting all other scripture:

  • God draws (wonderful invites) everyone who goes to Jesus (the banquet wedding party for His son)
  • Although, everyone is being drawn by a wonderful invited, some people of their own free will refuse to go.
  • Those drawn (invited) but do not go will not be given (at the party) with Jesus.
  • God will compel people to come to the party (the servants will explain how wonderful the party is to get people to come) but God is not having the people kidnapped or forced to go to the party.


Luke 14: The Parable of the Great Banquet

15 When one of those at the table with him heard this, he said to Jesus, “Blessed is the one who will eat at the feast in the kingdom of God.”

16 Jesus replied: “A certain man was preparing a great banquet and invited many guests. 17 At the time of the banquet he sent his servant to tell those who had been invited, ‘Come, for everything is now ready.’

18 “But they all alike began to make excuses. The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’

19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’

20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

21 “The servant came back and reported this to his master. Then the owner of the house became angry and ordered his servant, ‘Go out quickly into the streets and alleys of the town and bring in the poor, the crippled, the blind and the lame.’

22 “‘Sir,’ the servant said, ‘what you ordered has been done, but there is still room.’

23 “Then the master told his servant, ‘Go out to the roads and country lanes and compel them to come in, so that my house will be full. 24 I tell you, not one of those who were invited will get a taste of my banquet.’”
 
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Clare73

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We have some wonderful banquet parables which easily explain God’s selection method with added information, yet fitting all other scripture:
God draws (wonderful invites) everyone who goes to Jesus (the banquet wedding party for His son)
Although, everyone is being drawn by a wonderful invited, some people of their own free will refuse to go.
No text states that everyone is drawn.

The texts state that:
none come to Jesus unless the Father enables/draws them (Jn 6:65),
all (Jew and Gentile alike) whom the Father enables/draws will come (Jn 6:37).

Therefore, those who do not come have not been drawn.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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No text states that everyone is drawn.

The texts state that:
none come to Jesus unless the Father enables/draws them (Jn 6:65),
all (Jew and Gentile alike) whom the Father enables/draws will come (Jn 6:37).

Therefore, those who do not come have not been drawn.
Jesus said many are called but few are chosen so it sounds like many are called even if not absolutely everyone is.
 
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