Section 1 of the blog proves without a doubt that those who are “dead” are actually not dead, but rather, living
hmm - yet it failed to find a Bible text saying "the dead are living in heaven". -- so "beyond a question" is a bit of an over statement.
I like that your blog calls them "the dead".
So also does 1 Thess 4:13-18
Been there - done that.
1. Are dead Saints alive in Heaven?
A dead saint is a saint who has passed from earthly life unto death. As the definition states below, the New Testament teaches that when a person dies they enter into their judgement, the verdict of this judgment will send the person on their way to Heaven or on their way to Hell. So do people, who die in God’s grace (saints) go to Heaven after they die? Revelation 6 and 7 teach that Saints who died, are in Heaven with the Lord. “
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, ‘How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?’ Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.” (
Rev 6:10-11) and
Rev 7:13-15 “
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them’” These two texts could not be any clearer that Saints who have died (by martyrdom) are in Heaven with the Lord. Another set of passages in Revelation to look at are
Revelation 4:4 and
5:8 which reads “
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads “(4:4) and “
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb…”(5:8) The “twenty-four elders” are never explicitly identified but they seem to be distinct from beasts (the 4 living beasts) and from angels as well. Two possibilities of their identities can be elders from Israel(
1 Chronicles 24:1-19) or elders from the New testament church(
Acts 14:23,
1 Tim 5:17 etc.) Either way, it is safe to assume that these “elders” are humans.
The answer to the first question can be answered “
yes” with confidence. There are in fact saints who have died physically, who are now in Heaven with the Lord.
You call them
"dead saints" (not sleeping saints - I guess)
1 Thess 4:13-18 uses another term ... not "dead saints"
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those
who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those
who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that
we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those
who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And
the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then
we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The question is really "
are DEAD saints AWAKE or ASLEEP in heaven according to scripture?" -- if we can use your term "dead saints"
You quote of Rev 6 this way -
“
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, ‘How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?’ Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer,
Your own quote as them asleep/resting and has them all stuck under the altar for all these millennia (if we take the symbols literaly as you suggest)
Your suggestion that we find no symbols but only literal elements in apocalyptic texts - is a bit of a stretch.
Able's blood "cries out" in Heb 12, Gen 4.
Gen 4
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of
thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
But the blood of Christ speaks even better than that - in Heb 12.
Heb 12
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to t
he blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
It is irrefutable that symbolism is being used.
======================
Your quote Rev 7 this way
Rev 7:13-15 “
Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple
Rev 7 does not say they are dead. It does not say they are asleep. It does not say they ever died. But the Rev 7 chapter says that the Angels are doing a work of sealing the servants of God that will one day make up that number of
144,000 mentioned in Rev 7. The short section that you quote does not even tell us when this is.
You are using "extreme inference" to imply that this it talking about a time after they die - with their souls in heaven and before they are resurrected.
In Rev 14:1-5 they are with Him - and are not called "dead saints" nor even "asleep in Jesus" nor even "Those who have been slain"
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3 And they *sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to learn the song except the 144,000 who had been purchased from the earth. 4 These are the ones who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are celibate. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from mankind as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And no lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.
www.christianforums.com
