Is Praying to Saints a Biblical practice?

[The Liturgist]

ok thanks for clarifying that.

Scripture says not to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Is 8:19. It says to consult God instead.
But I think we all agree we can ask each other to offer prayers to God for one another.

Nothing in the prayer quoted by @PsaltiChrysostom violates the injunction against Necromancy we find in Isaiah, and that is addressed specifically by @Zachm531.

And of course we also know that prayers to the saints are acceptable based on the scripture verses he quotes, and of course 2 Maccabees, which is all the proof I need, since it is canonical Scripture of great importance. Indeed I think several books not included in the Masoretic text are more important than some which are, for example, the books of the Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, and the longer versions of Daniel and Esther.

 

[The Liturgist]

that would be a rather large post... Are you expecting a raft of posts from me about the blog??

Frankly, yes, because the blog post is pretty conclusive, and if you did post a rebuttal to it, I would enjoy reading that along with @Zachm531 ’s response. It would be very edifying for everyone.

 

[BobRyan]

And of course we also know that prayers to the saints are acceptable based on the scripture verses he quotes

1. He does not quote even one scripture telling us to pray to "dead saints" as he calls them.
2. He does not quote anything about side of apocalyptic symbols and parables for his main argument for communicating with what he calls "dead saints".

, and of course 2 Maccabees, which is all the proof I need,

I don't know of a quote of 2 Maccabees where someone is communicating with a dead person or asking a favor of a dead person in some other fashion.

2 Macc 12 references "the dead" -- saying it is "foolish to pray for the dead" if one is hoping to benefit the dead apart from the resurrection of the dead. Which is hardly a text about communicating with the dead, talking to them, requesting something from them etc.

I think several books not included in the Masoretic text are more important than some which are, for example, the books of the Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, and the longer versions of Daniel and Esther.

You have free will of course and can think whatever you wish or prefer whatever you wish.

 

[The Liturgist]

I quoted the proverb that applies to people who comment without first reading in the OP, check it out

Indeed you did, and the fact that some people (excluding my friend @BobRyan , who I disagree with on this and other issues, but trust; since he said he read it, you can count on him having done so) apparently did not read it but just responded to the thread title is profoundly disappointing. My own approach is rather than setting myself up to get annoyed, to spoonfeed people the content so they have to reply to it.

 

[BobRyan]

Frankly, yes, because the blog post is pretty conclusive, and if you did post a rebuttal to it, I would enjoy reading that along with @Zachm531 ’s response. It would be very edifying for everyone.

Well I am testing that theory out without imposing on the reader too much - - I posted a response to his section 1.

 

[The Liturgist]

1. He does not quote even one scripture telling us to pray to "dead saints" as he calls them.
2. He does not quote anything about side of apocalyptic symbols and parables for his main argument for communicating with what he calls "dead saints".

I would still prefer it if you could just write a point by point rebuttal of his post.

By the way, it is 2 Maccabees 15:14-17 which contains the verses in support of the intercession of the saints.

 

[The Liturgist]

Is 8:19 says to consult God instead of the dead.

In your experience how does God's response differ for you - from that of the dead when you ask for something?

We don’t ask the dead for intercessions. The saints are alive in Christ, in some cases they are even alive bodily (for instance, St. Elias, St. Enoch, St. Moses, and especially the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God), having been taken up bodily.

 

[Valletta]

Hi please no offense..

Very unwise to talk to someone in heaven when they do not hear you. . . .

Last this is just a Catholic belief not found in the word of God "The Catholic Catechism itself says in number 2116 " this is in the document as if its truth. Jews have the same kind of thing yet its not the Torah its man talking not God. NO offense

Incorrect. Those in Heaven are alive, not dead. I do not consider it unwise to pray any of the Psalms, such as Psalm 103 where we address the angels in Heaven. Obviously there would be no point to do so if they could not hear us.

 

[BobRyan]

I would still prefer it if you could just write a point by point rebuttal of his post.

So a good example of that is my reply to section 1.

By the way, it is 2 Maccabees 15:14-17 which contains the verses in support of the intercession of the saints.

Reluctance to quote it by those appealing to it is remarkable.

And now to see why quoting that apocryphal chapter is such a problem if you are looking of people told to pray to the dead

2 Macc 15:
11 Having armed each of them not so much with the protection of shield and spear as with the confidence aroused by brave words, he encouraged all of them by relating a dream, a type of vision, that was worthy of belief.
12 What he had seen was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and noble man, modest in bearing, gentle in manner, eloquent in speech, and trained from childhood in every virtue, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole Jewish community. 13 Next, in the same fashion, another man appeared, distinguished by his great age and dignity, an impressive air of majesty and extraordinary authority. 14 Onias then began to speak. “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah,” he said, “who loves the family of Israel and fervently prays for his people and the holy city.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and presented Judas with a gold sword. As he gave it to him, he said, 16 “Take this holy sword as a gift from God. With it you will crush your enemies.”

this apocryphal text of 2 Macc 15 says it is not real life but rather a "dream" .

So then "a dream" where someone 'dreamed Onias" and then Onias prayed, and then Jeremiah appears in the dream to Onias who was himself dreamed up.

Many people (including myself) have lost a loved one and then "dreamed" about talking with them about something. That is not the same thing as a living person wide awake being told to pray to the dead by a Bible prophet - with both of them wide awake.

I guess we all knew that

People are free to insert massive amounts of suggestions and inference into apocryphal texts about dreams and various people talking in a dream - then suggest to others about how real a dream must surely be". - everyone has free will.

 

[Valletta]

So a good example of that is my reply to section 1.

Reluctance to quote it by those appealing to it is remarkable.

And now to see why quoting it is such a problem

14 And Onias spoke, saying, “This is a man who loves the family of Israel and prays much for the people and the holy city—Jeremiah, the prophet of God.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave to Judas a golden sword, and as he gave it he addressed him thus: 16 “Take this holy sword, a gift from God, with which you will strike down your adversaries.”
17 Encouraged by the words of Judas, so noble and so effective in arousing valor and awaking courage in the souls of the young, they determined not to carry on a campaign but to attack bravely, and to decide the matter by fighting hand to hand with all courage, because the city and the sanctuary and the temple were in danger.

What's the problem?

 

[BobRyan]

We don’t ask the dead for intercessions. The saints are alive in Christ

1 Thess 4:13-18 calls them "DEAD in Christ" and you come up with another term never used for what the OP calls "DEAD saints"

How "instructive for the unbiased objective reader in my POV.

, in some cases they are even alive bodily (for instance, St. Elias, St. Enoch, St. Moses

Elijah was translated without ever dying 2 Kings 2
Enoch was translated without ever dying in Genesis 5 as we see in Heb 11.
Moses is the subject of the book "The ASSUMPTION of Moses" quoted in Jude 1 - regarding his bodily resurrection and assumption into heaven.

so "yeah" those three a good examples of NOT dead saints.

, and especially the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Mother of God), having been taken up bodily.

No such text in all of scripture. You are free suppose it to be true if you wish of course - you do have free will.

 

[BobRyan]

So a good example of that is my reply to section 1.

Reluctance to quote it by those appealing to it is remarkable.

And now to see why quoting that apocryphal chapter is such a problem if you are looking of people told to pray to the dead

2 Macc 15:
11 Having armed each of them not so much with the protection of shield and spear as with the confidence aroused by brave words, he encouraged all of them by relating a dream, a type of vision, that was worthy of belief.
12 What he had seen was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and noble man, modest in bearing, gentle in manner, eloquent in speech, and trained from childhood in every virtue, was praying with outstretched hands for the whole Jewish community. 13 Next, in the same fashion, another man appeared, distinguished by his great age and dignity, an impressive air of majesty and extraordinary authority. 14 Onias then began to speak. “This is God’s prophet Jeremiah,” he said, “who loves the family of Israel and fervently prays for his people and the holy city.” 15 Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and presented Judas with a gold sword. As he gave it to him, he said, 16 “Take this holy sword as a gift from God. With it you will crush your enemies.”

So then "a dream" where someone 'dreamed Onias" and then Onias prayed, and then Jeremiah appears in the dream to Onias who was himself dreamed up.

Many people (including myself) have lost a loved one and the "dreamed" about talking with them about something. That is not the same thing as a living person wide awake being told to pray to the dead by a Bible prophet - with both of them wide awake.

I guess we all knew that.

What's the problem?

this apocryphal text of 2 Macc 15 says it is not real life but rather a "dream" .

So then "a dream" where someone 'dreamed Onias" and then Onias prayed, and then Jeremiah appears in the dream to Onias who was himself dreamed up.

Many people (including myself) have lost a loved one and then "dreamed" about talking with them about something. That is not the same thing as a living person wide awake being told to pray to the dead by a Bible prophet - with both of them wide awake.

 

[BobRyan]

And of course we also know that prayers to the saints are acceptable based on the scripture verses he quotes, and of course 2 Maccabees, which is all the proof I need, since it is canonical Scripture of great importance. Indeed I think several books not included in the Masoretic text are more important than some which are, for example, the books of the Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Tobit, and the longer versions of Daniel and Esther.

quoting apocryphal texts that talk about dreaming up a former high priest who then in the dream prays - and then in the dream the one dreamed up sees Jeremiah and talks to him... is a bit of stretch.

I prefer actual scripture and an actual statement calling for prayers to the dead if one is to believe in such ideas.

One thing is for dead sure - the custodians and authors of the OT text - were Jews not NT Christians. And the custodians of the NT texts were Christians no OT Jews. I don't see how this could be the least bit confusing.

 

[concretecamper]

Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ. Physical death does not break that bond. He is the God of the living.

Luke 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance

The dead are keenly aware of what goes on here on earth.

 

[DarkForest]

So Satan can tempt me.
My fellow Christians in meat sacks can pray for me.

But if my mom died she'd not be bugging God?

But if I ask gramma Gertrude, the most pious woman I have every known, who sings along with the angels of God beside his throne... no, she ain't listening. You are telling me my dead family and grandparents don't care about me? They don't pray for me in Heaven? So when my grandmother died of cancer when I was born she stopped praying for me?


Apparently, they live in blissful ignorance. What nonsense is this?

The Church is the living and the dead and we pray for each other.

If my mom were to die tonight, if I asked her through God to pray for me to Him, could God not deliver that prayer?

 

[RileyG]

ok thanks for clarifying that.

Scripture says not to "consult the dead on behalf of the living" Is 8:19. It says to consult God instead.
But I think we all agree we can ask each other to offer prayers to God for one another.

The saints aren't dead. They are alive in Christ.

 

[RileyG]

Baptism incorporates one into the Body of Christ. Physical death does not break that bond. He is the God of the living.

Luke 15:7 I say to you that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance

The dead are keenly aware of what goes on here on earth.

Amen. I am so thankful for their constant intercession.

 

[The Liturgist]

I prefer actual scripture and an actual statement calling for prayers to the dead if one is to believe in such ideas.

2 Maccabees is actual Scripture. And once more, we do not pray to the dead. If you are definitely saved, you are alive, either in Heaven or in the World to Come, since the eternal nature of God makes it completely possible that the saints, who by grace participate in His divine energies, intercede for us in the World to Come and are thus physically as well as spiritually alive, having been resurrected.

By the way if @prodromos @dzheremi and @concretecamper could give me their thoughts on the theoulougomemnon (theological opinion) I just posted, I would be greatly obliged.

 

[BobRyan]

2 Maccabees is actual Scripture.

The OT - was not written by NT Christians nor was 2 Maccabees - so it is not part of the NT.
Christians have no authority over the OT - and cannot change it.
Josephus informs us that the OT was canonized over 300 years before the time of Christ and kept in the Temple as such.

That makes it difficult to add 2 Maccabees to scripture

And once more, we do not pray to the dead.

Hmm - it is under the title "Communion with the Dead" in the Catechism. Call it what you will.
2 Macc 12 calls it prayers for the dead. But 2 Macc 12 also does not claim to pray TO anyone but God Himself - not the dead.

The saints aren't dead. They are alive in Christ.

Not a single text calls the "dead in Christ" (as 1 Thess 4 calls them) -- "The Alive in Christ".
I prefer scripture

Even the 2 Macc book calls them "the dead".

Notice that in 2 Macc 12 the dead are called "the dead" not "The alive in Christ"

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

If you are definitely saved, you are alive,

In 1 Thess 4:13-18 scripture calls them "the dead in Christ"
In John 10 Christ says "Lazarus is dead"

And in the resurrection 1 Thess 4 says "the DEAD in Christ shall rise first".

So there is that.
Is 8 says not to consult the dead on behalf of the living.

Is 8:19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living?

 

[BobRyan]

The saints aren't dead. They are alive in Christ.

Not a single text calls the "dead in Christ" (as 1 Thess 4 calls them) -- "The Alive in Christ".
I prefer scripture

Even their 2 Macc book calls them "the dead".

Notice that in 2 Macc 12 the dead are called "the dead" not "The alive in Christ"

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)