Is prayer testable?

[Wiccan_Child]

Is prayer testable? Specifically, prayer requests: is it possible to devise an experiment that could provide hard evidence that God really does actively answer at least some prayers, above what we would statistically expect by pure chance alone?

 

[keith99]

Yes and no.

Once a specific claim is made the claim can be tested.

If the claim about prayer is the God ALWAYS answers the prayers of a righteous man it would seem easily testable.

But any spacific claim would involve a specific man and if the prayer was not answered the failure could eb either that the man was not righteous or that God does no talways answer such prayers.

Add in that vanishingly few claim God always answers prayers and the question of just what would constitute an answered (or granted) prayer and it pretty much becomes untestable. At least not in a way that will convince any true believer (on either side).

EDIT: Unless of course God really did grant prayers in a form more like a djinn than like a God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I said yes. I assume that the claim is that prayer has an effect; that it has practical implications to reality.

There are those who don't make this claim. For them, prayer is a meditative event meant to help conform oneself to God's will. (For me, this is a buddhist-like attempt to accept the world as it is.) This sort of prayer isn't practically testable and won't be until science can detect changes in personhood. Physiologically, I believe it has been shown that meditation techniques do produce physical changes. But "conforming to God's will" will require a lot of definition.

 

[juvenissun]

No. It has too many variables. Some are personal.

But, personally, Yes. But others would never know.

 

[AlexBP]

Is prayer testable? Specifically, prayer requests: is it possible to devise an experiment that could provide hard evidence that God really does actively answer at least some prayers, above what we would statistically expect by pure chance alone?

I say that it is not. Jesus said that one should not test God [Matthew 4:7] and when tested Him by asking whether he would produce a miraculous sign, he refused to do so. [Matthew 16:1-4] In a relationship where testing occurs, it is typically a one-way relationship between the one who does the testing and the one who gets tested. In calculus class I test my students; they do not test me. When I go the DMV to get my driver's license, they test my eyesight and hearing; I do not test them. In both cases there's an authority figure who gives a test to a supplicant. Likewise God is our authority figure and we are the supplicants. For people to test God would represent an inversion of the Christian understanding about the relationship between God and humanity.

Here's an analogy that I've often used before. Imagine I say that my mother is willing to bake a cake for me, and someone insists on putting the claim to an experimental test. Five hundred subjects will be randomly assigned to two groups, A and B. Those in group A will ask my mother to bake them a cake, while those in group B will not. Then we will count how many members of each group receive a cake from my mother. What would the result be? Presumably no member of either group would receive a cake from my mother, because the experiment by nature is insulting to her, and there's no logical reason for her to participate in it.

Even if we removed the particular difficulty that the Christian God is an authority figure who cannot be tested, I don't see how prayer could be tested even for a generic deity of any religion. When we do an experiment, we apply a treatment to one group of things, but not to a control group. For example, we might give fertilizer to one group of pea plants but not to another. Then we'd observe the growth of both groups and compare to determine what effect the fertilizer had. But such an experiment is based on the assumption that the pea plants don't know what's going on and can't take an action just because they feel like it. If we instead had somebody pray to God for the growth of the pea plants in one group but not the other, God could very well decide to augment the growth of the plants in both groups, because God is an intelligent being. Hence the final result would not necessarily tell us anything about the effects of prayer on the growth of pea plants.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

It depends on the specific definitions used. If I pray for a million bucks, and do not get it, this can be construed as a failure.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It depends on the specific definitions used. If I pray for a million bucks, and do not get it, this can be construed as a failure.

What if you get it? Would that be construed as a success?

 

[Resha Caner]

I say that it is not. Jesus said that one should not test God [Matthew 4:7] and when tested Him by asking whether he would produce a miraculous sign, he refused to do so. [Matthew 16:1-4] In a relationship where testing occurs, it is typically a one-way relationship between the one who does the testing and the one who gets tested. In calculus class I test my students; they do not test me. When I go the DMV to get my driver's license, they test my eyesight and hearing; I do not test them. In both cases there's an authority figure who gives a test to a supplicant. Likewise God is our authority figure and we are the supplicants. For people to test God would represent an inversion of the Christian understanding about the relationship between God and humanity.

Here's an analogy that I've often used before. Imagine I say that my mother is willing to bake a cake for me, and someone insists on putting the claim to an experimental test. Five hundred subjects will be randomly assigned to two groups, A and B. Those in group A will ask my mother to bake them a cake, while those in group B will not. Then we will count how many members of each group receive a cake from my mother. What would the result be? Presumably no member of either group would receive a cake from my mother, because the experiment by nature is insulting to her, and there's no logical reason for her to participate in it.

Even if we removed the particular difficulty that the Christian God is an authority figure who cannot be tested, I don't see how prayer could be tested even for a generic deity of any religion. When we do an experiment, we apply a treatment to one group of things, but not to a control group. For example, we might give fertilizer to one group of pea plants but not to another. Then we'd observe the growth of both groups and compare to determine what effect the fertilizer had. But such an experiment is based on the assumption that the pea plants don't know what's going on and can't take an action just because they feel like it. If we instead had somebody pray to God for the growth of the pea plants in one group but not the other, God could very well decide to augment the growth of the plants in both groups, because God is an intelligent being. Hence the final result would not necessarily tell us anything about the effects of prayer on the growth of pea plants.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Is prayer testable? Specifically, prayer requests: is it possible to devise an experiment that could provide hard evidence that God really does actively answer at least some prayers, above what we would statistically expect by pure chance alone?

I would think that it could be comfirmed that there is some kind of effect. If however something about the cause could be found out -- that is another question.

On the other hand, the definition of working prayer does somehow imply that it is possible to change God's mind. So I think if we found out that petitive prayer worked, then ironically that would actually pose a considerable problem.

ETA: And where is the option to vote "Whatever"?

 

[TScott]

A fisherman was out at sea in a storm. The high waves completely engufed and capsized is boat. He was able to hang on to his overturned boat and barely stay afloat. He prayed for God to save him. He reminded God that he was a devout man, who went to Church every Sunday. The man was truly devout and was confident that God would not let him drown. As chance would have it, a ship came by and the crew threw a line to the man. No thanks, he said, God was going to save him. The crew pleaded with him, but to no avail. The storm was getting much worse so finally the boat had to leave. Soon a huge wave drove the man under and he drowned. He awoke in Heaven and asked God why he didn't answer his prayer and save him, to which God answered:

"Who do you think sent the ship?"

 

[Wiccan_Child]

A fisherman was out at sea in a storm. The high waves completely engufed and capsized is boat. He was able to hang on to his overturned boat and barely stay afloat. He prayed for God to save him. He reminded God that he was a devout man, who went to Church every Sunday. The man was truly devout and was confident that God would not let him drown. As chance would have it, a ship came by and the crew threw a line to the man. No thanks, he said, God was going to save him. The crew pleaded with him, but to no avail. The storm was getting much worse so finally the boat had to leave. Soon a huge wave drove the man under and he drowned. He awoke in Heaven and asked God why he didn't answer his prayer and save him, to which God answered:

"Who do you think sent the ship?"

So much for the free will of the sailors

 

[Theofane]

Would God cooperate with someone who is "just testing" Him? I think not.

It would be like calling 911 emergency dispatch just to say, "There's no emergency-- I just wanted to see if you'd pick up!" (And that is actually a criminal offence!)

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Would God cooperate with someone who is "just testing" Him? I think not.

It would be like calling 911 emergency dispatch just to say, "There's no emergency-- I just wanted to see if you'd pick up!" (And that is actually a criminal offence!)

A good objection, to which there is an easy solution: passively observe those who are praying already. A thousand Christian mothers genuinely praying for their Christian sons not die of some terminal disease, surely God won't say no to all of them? If we look at these women and compare the proportion of sons who survive with the odds we'd expect by medicine and chance alone, we could presumably see a small, but significant, increase in survival rate among the fervently-prayed-for than those who aren't so gifted.

If God doesn't benefit the prayed-for more than the not-prayed-for (or, indeed, he doesn't help anyone), we see no such increase, and we can conclude that praying for something won't make it more likely to happen.

On the other hand, you could argue that God actively refuses to answer someone's prayer if someone's monitoring the result - but doesn't that paint God being incredibly petty, even wicked?

 

[TScott]

So much for the free will of the sailors

In the OP, you asked the following question:

Is prayer testable? Specifically, prayer requests: is it possible to devise an experiment that could provide hard evidence that God really does actively answer at least some prayers, above what we would statistically expect by pure chance alone?

God is a personal god, and the evidence of the existence of this god dwells within the believers. Only they can tell you of the evidence of the existence of their god.
This is where faith enters into the picture.

The fisherman was evidently expecting the heavens to open up and the hand of God would come down, pluck him out of the sea and place him on dry land. In this case, that wasn't how it worked, instead God guided the ship, through it's operators to where the man was.

If God didn't require the faith of his believers, if God wanted everyone to believe in his existence we'd see him all the time.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

In the OP, you asked the following question:



God is a personal god, and the evidence of the existence of this god dwells within the believers. Only they can tell you of the evidence of the existence of their god.
This is where faith enters into the picture.

The fisherman was evidently expecting the heavens to open up and the hand of God would come down, pluck him out of the sea and place him on dry land. In this case, that wasn't how it worked, instead God guided the ship, through it's operators to where the man was.

If God didn't require the faith of his believers, if God wanted everyone to believe in his existence we'd see him all the time.

Then my follow up question is: why does God require faith?

Isn't it a bit odd to ask people to believe in you (on pain of eternal suffering), yet not only do you not give them anything to base that belief on, but you require that this belief be based on nothing whatsoever?

 

[AlexBP]

A good objection, to which there is an easy solution: passively observe those who are praying already. A thousand Christian mothers genuinely praying for their Christian sons not die of some terminal disease, surely God won't say no to all of them? If we look at these women and compare the proportion of sons who survive with the odds we'd expect by medicine and chance alone, we could presumably see a small, but significant, increase in survival rate among the fervently-prayed-for than those who aren't so gifted.

I see several problems with this approach. First, similar to what I already noted, if there were a group of sons whose mothers prayed fervently for them and a group whose sons did not pray fervently for them, God might choose to effect healings among both groups. In a scientific experiment to determine the effects of X, one must have a group that is treated with X and a control group that is not. This is true regardless of whether X is drug, a fertilizer, a therapy regimen, or anything else. To test whether God has an effect, we'd need a control group that is not affected by God, but God can affect anything at times and places of his choosing. Hence there can never be a control group in an experiment that tests God, so there can never be an experiment that tests God.

Also, if the thousand mothers in your example were true Christians, they couldn't fail to desire the healing of everybody who is sick. They would have to feel that desire in their hearts, even if to an outsider it seemed their prayers of each one was focused on her son. Add to that the billions of people, Christian and otherwise, who pray for the healing of all sick people everywhere all the time, and there's no way to produce a group of people who aren't prayed for.

 

[acropolis]

Yes it's possible. One example is here:

BBC NEWS | Health | Prayer 'no aid to heart patients'

The setup is simple: Take two groups of people undergoing the same medical procedure and have one group receiving prayer and the other not. If prayer makes a different there will be a difference in the outcome of that procedure, short or long term.

 

[TScott]

Then my follow up question is: why does God require faith?

Isn't it a bit odd to ask people to believe in you (on pain of eternal suffering), yet not only do you not give them anything to base that belief on, but you require that this belief be based on nothing whatsoever?

It's hard to say, but one possibility could be in the Gnostic belief that God was not present in this plane of existence and that he could only make his presence felt through us.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It's hard to say, but one possibility could be in the Gnostic belief that God was not present in this plane of existence and that he could only make his presence felt through us.

Do you believe that? If so, could you elaborate on it?

 

[AlexBP]

The setup is simple: Take two groups of people undergoing the same medical procedure and have one group receiving prayer and the other not.

As I asked before, how can anyone make sure that a group of people is not receiving prayer?