Originally posted by tericl2
Are you going to keep going around and around on the same ride? You did manage to twist my words to fit into your predetermined evaluation of what you believe.
tericl2, how about we discuss this without the animosity? Okay? I didn't twist anything. If you feel that I've misunderstood your position, please clarify it for me. Let us gain insight together.
How does accepting a gift show any sovereignty on man's part?
"Accepting" the gift isn't what shows man's sovereignty in your position. The decision of being saved being up to man is what shows man's sovereignty. Let me explain. You admit that it is God who does the saving. So, I'll start my explanation prior to a person being saved. Let's call the person, John.
So, here's God, with the power to save John. John is fallen (prior to being saved) and totally separated from God. John's sin nature prevents him from seeking the Lord, choosing to worship God, and loving the Lord.
Now, according to you, at this point, John sees that something is missing in his life and turns to the Lord to fill that void. Even though it is the "wooing" of the Holy Spirit which leads John to believe that God may be the answer to his existence, it is still ultimately up to John as to whether he will heed that call.
At this point we need to analyze the situation. John is not yet saved, because he hasn't actually "accepted" God's gift of salvation, and so God, who is, well, God, is waiting for John to make his decision. This is where it gets a little confusing to me. In this scenario either God doesn't really care what happens to John (IOW,
it is not His definite Will that John be saved), or,
it is God's Will that John be saved but there's a possibility that John may choose otherwise (IOW, God really wants John to be saved, it is His divine Will that John be saved, but there's a possibility that John's will is going to determine something contrary to God's Will). Hmmm...who sounds sovereign here?
Sovereign means to be supreme in authority. Sovereign means to have the power to enact one's will
WITHOUT regard or consideration for outside circumstance or influence. Sovereign means to have the power to make the decision
AND the power to ensure that the decision is enacted and carried through to completion, no matter what happens separate to that decision. So, in the example above, God really wants John to be saved but John is the one who decides to "accept or reject" God's Will that John be saved. John's will is greater than God's Will. John is sovereign.
The gift analogy has absolutley nothing to do with OSNAS. Once you are saved you are "reborn". There is no going back.
Let me get this straight. You believe it is up to you whether you'll be saved, i.e. you have to make the decision to "accept" God's gift, but, you can do nothing to lose that gift. You did something to get it, but you can't do something to lose it? Is that what you're saying?
But it is upon belief (see Rom 10:9,10) that regeneration takes place.
I never said it wasn't. What I said was that the "belief upon which regeneration takes place" isn't something that is there before God puts it there. And, He doesn't put that regenerative belief in everyone, else everyone would be saved.
If the elitist viewpoint of the "elect" makes you feel better that is fine.
Where, at
any point in stating my opinion, did I ever imply, or state outright, that salvation was based on the qualities of the saved? I have never said that those that are saved deserve to be saved any more than those that aren't saved. You see, that's your viewpoint. You are the one that says God saved you because
you "chose to accept Him." You are the one who says that your salvation is based upon
you making the decision to "accept" God. I'm the one saying that your salvation had nothing to do with one single characteristic of your's, other than your need for a Savior, which doesn't make you elite, it makes you fallen, just like everyone else.
Maybe I am part of the elect, I just don't feel like it most of the time!
Most saved people don't feel worthy. There's nothing wrong with that. The truth is, we aren't worthy.
I made a choice to follow Christ because I wanted to.
Where do you think that desire to follow Christ came from. Was it a remnant of your "pre-fall" nature? Let me enlighten you about the fallen man:
Romans 3:10-18
"There is
none righteous, no, not one;
<SUP> </SUP>There is
none who understands;
There is
NONE WHO SEEKS AFTER GOD.
<SUP> </SUP>They have
all turned aside;
They have
together become unprofitable;
There is
none who does good, no, not one."
<SUP> </SUP>"Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit";
"The poison of asps is under their lips";
<SUP> </SUP>"Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
<SUP> </SUP>"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
<SUP> </SUP>Destruction and misery are in their ways;
<SUP> </SUP>And the way of peace they have not known."
<SUP> </SUP>"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
That's the state of fallen man in which you say he "reaches out with his spiritual hands of FAITH and RECEIVES the gift from his spiritual Father."
I guess He could have forced me without me knowing.
If you're saved, believe me, He did it without your compliance.
It just seems funny that there is not much Biblical evidence to show that God forces any of us to do anything.
God Bless.
Really? Tell you what, be on the look out for a thread, by me about the ways in which God exerts His Will over the will of His creation.
God bless.