Is Obedience to God Necessary?

Danthemailman said:

You nailed it! Sadly, man wants to play a part in their salvation and boast in their performance. Oh the pride of man! Yet Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28)

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Not sure how this lines up with Luke 13:6-9. You keep skipping an explanation for this message from Christ.

BNR32FAN said:

Not sure how this lines up with Luke 13:6-9. You keep skipping an explanation for this message from Christ.

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Luke 13:6-9 speaks of a tree bereft of a single fruit whatsoever. Not that it's not fruitful enough. Surely coming to belief in the Gospel is bearing a fruit.

BNR32FAN said:

Not sure how this lines up with Luke 13:6-9. You keep skipping an explanation for this message from Christ.

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The fig tree is symbolic of Israel. The story has symbolic significance. The vineyard owner represents the Lord and three years represents His ministry to Israel before His crucifixion.

Danthemailman said:

Hebrews 11:1 - Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

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I majored in/focused on Greek exegesis in seminary. I'm happy to have this level of discussions with you.

Although I do use Strong's, I try to stay away or work around any dictionary or lexical tools that insert theology into their "definitions." Your highlighted portion from Strong's is just that, a theological conclusion, whether right or wrong, and I'm not saying it's wrong. I'm just saying I don't want dictionaries, concordances, or lexicons giving me theology. This is not a definition for "pistis" and it barely scratches the surface of how pistis and cognates are used in our Text.

BTW, I think there's more to Hebrews 11 than this translation brings out, but that's another discussion.

Danthemailman said:

Although works are produced by authentic faith, works are not included in the definition of faith. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith, but not the essence of faith and also not the means or basis by which we obtain or maintain salvation. From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works.

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This is all your conclusion, Daniel. I agree with some of it and disagree with some of it, mainly because I know your underlying conclusions and thus what you mean by it.

You've been very creative, for example, to try to explain away what we're clearly commanded to do in Philippians 2:12 in collaboration with God per 2:13. Also, when you offered the analogies of the gym for the body, and the farmer for the land, earlier in this thread, you never answer my follow-up question about these things.

The fact is that we're commanded to "work to accomplish" (better = "accomplish by work") our salvation (not "sanctification," but "salvation") with fear and trembling as God is energizing us to will and do. Even if I go along with your desire to translate this Greek word as "work out," as many do, and as you prefer, it still is a command to work at what we've been given. And my question to you was, what if we don't?

Your answer seems to be that if we're truly saved we will, and if we don't, then we were not saved. Correct? The other answer per some is that we walked away from what we were given. Other's say, no matter, we were saved and we just lose rewards.

I can see now that you've classified Ephesians 2:8-9 as your first tense of Salvation. Assuming so, I would agree with you, but also say there is more stated in those verses. If you see this as the first tense, then why do you reference it as an argument in a discussion about the second tense of Salvation, which is mainly what we're (including BH) discussing? Do you really think we don't understand what you want to label technically as "Justification" and the crediting of righteousness to faith?

Danthemailman said:

Here is a good example on how certain people error by "including" works in faith and teach salvation by faith and works. I was recently in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who claimed that the Roman Catholic church does not teach salvation by works, then afterwards contradicted himself by making this statement below in blue:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is NOT simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

His argument about the Roman Catholic church not teaching salvation by works, then afterward stating that faith is "defined as" and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works. It's all smoke and mirrors. BTW where do you attend church?

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I'm not Roman Catholic, but I do see the point in his first statement, "We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". This is part of the "Faith is never Alone" argument against "Faith Alone." I would just delete his next statements and define and explain Faith Biblically, which I began to do in an earlier post.

As for "works" being attached to (Faith plus works) a living, Biblical Faith, I think James makes this clear, and As I explained earlier, I think Paul agrees with him in Romans 4. I see Paul as explaining that we just need to understand that the + works is not a part of our initial Salvation ("Justification" if you prefer).

The thing is with Romanism, although Protestantism stands firmly against it, and rightfully so in many regards IMO, there are some very well versed R.Catholics on some of these threads, who I have more agreement with than I have with many non-R.Catholics.

Where do you attend church? Does it really matter? If I was someone sitting behind you to the left on Sundays, would you be able to use my church as an argument against me? BTW, do you look like Jerry Seinfeld? Your avatar always throws me.

Danthemailman said:

The Bible clearly states in many passages of scripture that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5-6; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST ALONE.

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That's a lot of work to say something where you're simply beginning by adding your own interpretative conclusion ("apart from additions or modifications,") which is no different than what some, mainly in the in the Free Grace camp, for example, also do with "Faith."

When we isolate verses and build entire theological systems in doing so, of course we can make the Text say what we want it to say. But, when we allow the Text to define it's words, which it does more than many will allow for, then "Faith," for example, becomes a word that is explained well beyond what many want to isolate it to mean. I agree with your "rightly understood" parenthesis.

Strong was doing this in what you quoted earlier. When I said I try to avoid such work, it's simply because I determined at some point, after being trained in exegesis, that I wanted to do my own work to whatever degree and then see if I agree with works like Strong's. There's too much disagreement in theology for me to simply take works and accept them.

Re: Faith Alone in Christ Alone: I don't use the phrase. I agree with what you said about not needing to add "alone," and with what you said re: "rightly understood." As for "Christ Alone," it's just another coined phrase that Scripture like the following tells us is not entirely accurate per Jesus:

NKJ John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Danthemailman said:

Faith must result in producing works (all genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful) or else it demonstrates that it's dead. This does not mean that works are "included" in faith or are the very essence of faith. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Certain people in the never alone group cross the line and teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

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Honestly, I getting a bit tired of reading what I've read a thousand times before, as I know you will get tired of reading my long response to you.

I think we're pretty much in agreement in your first paragraph above. I would just add the commanded abiding into it. Our discussion would then trend into the OSAS topic, which I'll set aside for now.

RE: "Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9;" - Earlier re" Eph2, you said something to the effect of "have been saved." Now you say "is saved." You seem to look at some Greek and use it at times. How would you translate the perfect paraphrastic construction of the present tense verb + the perfect participle in Ephesians 2:8: "have been saved" or "are saved"? Is this pointing to your first tense of salvation, or more? Is Salvation a process of 3 tenses, or is it not?

RE: "Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works." "Christ saves" or "Christ saved"? If we talk in tenses, maybe we should talk in tenses, and begin & continue doing so. Then maybe Philippians 2:12-13 will make sense to you.

The rest of your paragraph has been discussed.

Danthemailman said:

When you say that faith "includes" obedience to God + works, you are basically saying that faith "is" obedience/works and that we are saved through faith + obedience/works, which is in error. Obedience, which is produced after having been saved through faith is works and we are not saved by works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

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If I elaborate to be more clear, as I have already done above in the discussion re: "+" works, then will you accept that works can be separated from Faith, as Paul clearly explains in Romans 4 (which I see as harmonizing with James)? Would you accept that Biblical Faith includes works, but God has done all the work, and does all the work to bring us to Biblical Faith, and until we come to Biblical Faith, as commanded, our Biblical works can only begin when we come to Biblical Faith?

Biblical Faith + Biblical Works begins the moment we come to Biblical Faith. Not before. So, we could do no Biblical Works, before we came to Biblical Faith. Once we come to Biblical Faith, we can do Biblical Works. This is what James and Paul are clarifying.

RE: Obedience. Our Text reveals that you are clearly wrong about Faith-Obedience. I usually don't get an answer to this question, but I'll ask it anyway. Maybe you'll be kind and open enough to respond to it. Your friend, Brian, dodged a response to this in another thread with every tool he has.

In a few places in Scripture (1 John 3, John 6, and elsewhere I'd have to find), unbelievers, at minimum, are commanded by God to believe in His Son. So, since God commands Biblical Belief in His Son, can we believe in His Son without being obedient to God? Although Faith and Obedience are 2 separate words, how do we separate Faith and Obedience when it comes to believing in Jesus Christ as God commands?

I can show you how Paul and the writer of Hebrews use faith & obedience interchangeably. You are clearly wrong that Obedience is a Work. Apart from Faith-Obedience, there are no tenses of Salvation for us.

Danthemailman said:

Paul could not have made this any clearer. Romans 4:2 - 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness." Paul then goes on to say in verse 5-6: But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. *Crystal clear, yet certain people will still try to "get around" that anyway they can and teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

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Danthemailman said:

Paul clearly negates salvation by faith + works and teaches salvation by faith, not works. (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..). Certain people will try to "get around" these passages of scripture by teaching we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith/works of obedience etc..) and just not "those" works (specific works of the law) but that argument is bogus.

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I've previously addressed in this thread what Paul is saying here by elaborating on the first-class condition you identify by highlighting "if." Once again, apply your tenses to this and these Scripture(s) and tell me if Paul is talking about tense 1, 2 or 3. Also, please determine for once and for all if your tenses understanding means that Salvation is a process.

Danthemailman said:

So how hard must we work in order to help God accomplish our salvation? That is "type 2 works salvation."

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How hard do you work to increasingly overcome sin and become trained in godliness under subjection God's Grace? So, your coined phrase is your negating what God commands through Paul in Philippians 2:12-13. Nice work.

Danthemailman said:

It's not about Biblical faith must abide, but will abide. A bare profession of faith that does not abide demonstrates that it's a spurious faith. The Greek word for "abide" is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. This is not something that only super saints do.
1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit... 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

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Again, an OSAS discussion. I understand what view you've settled on so far. You're opening up a more in-depth discussion of Greek tenses, comparisons to related Scriptures, not to mention the overall context of 1 John. We're not there yet.

Danthemailman said:

Biblical faith results in producing obedience/works and continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

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Change this to continual (a "meno" and "hupomone" concept) Biblical Faith-Obedience results in producing continual works and we may be in agreement!

Danthemailman said:

At times I will hear Roman Catholics say that "faith alone" is correct "after" they "shoe horn" works "into" faith, but it's really salvation by faith + works and not salvation through faith in Christ alone.

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OK. Informative & understood. I'll pray to Mary and ask her to get them to correct where they're off.

Danthemailman said:

The fig tree is symbolic of Israel. The story has symbolic significance. The vineyard owner represents the Lord and three years represents His ministry to Israel before His crucifixion.

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Ok that’s an assumption, there’s no scriptural reference to Israel as a fig tree, but it doesn’t really matter. The point is that even despite Jesus giving special attention to the tree, whether it be Israel or any individual is irrelevant, but despite His giving special attention to the tree the outcome is still uncertain. Without cooperation from the individual fruit will not be produced. So your statement that Christ’s work will complete our salvation is incorrect because Christ’s work was for the entire world not a select group and only those who cooperate with Him will receive salvation.

MMXX said:

Luke 13:6-9 speaks of a tree bereft of a single fruit whatsoever. Not that it's not fruitful enough. Surely coming to belief in the Gospel is bearing a fruit.

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If belief in the gospel was bearing fruit then the branches who are in Christ wouldn’t be cut off for not bearing fruit in John 15:2. How could they be in Christ without believing?

Danthemailman said:

I understand the difference between justification, ongoing sanctification and glorification and what tense is being discussed in the various verses I referenced. You seem to believe that Christ merely "initially" saves us by grace through faith, then after that, we do the rest, with His help of course. Back door works salvation.

Now I actually do see work on the part of the believer in regards to the process of ongoing sanctification as believers progress in spiritual growth and maturity. Believers are active and not passive in this process, yet it is God who works in believers, both to will and to do for His good pleasure. This is not about working to help God save us or keep us saved based on the merits of our performance as works-salvationists teach.

"Type 2 works salvation" is a phrase I use to point out how people teach that salvation is "maintained by works." Sadly, prideful man is over confident in his own righteousness and looks down on others, just like the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector. It's actually your soteriology that is wrong and so is the soteriology of all who also teach salvation by faith AND WORKS.

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow works-salvationists to place their faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation.

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You may understand the tenses of the verses you quote, but you don't always reference them accordingly.

I see all of our Salvation as based in and founded upon Grace through Faith-Obedience. That foundation is always there holding up the structure being built. The good structure cannot be separated from the only foundation, which is Christ (1 Cor 3). Apart from Him we can do nothing (John 15) as I've clearly stated, likely in answering you earlier. Abiding in Him as commanded we will do the work of the branches fed by the root of the vine. In disobedience to Him, which is unbelief in Him, which is ceasing to confess who He is, we will not be fed, sustained, and energized by Him, and the building will cease to be constructed on a solid foundation. This is all a part of Salvation and us working with Him energizing us to accomplish the production of the fruit and building of Salvation.

Ongoing sanctification is properly known as Salvation in Philippians 2:12-13. So, properly stated, we do work as commanded with God to accomplish our Salvation. When you get past changing "salvation" to "sanctification" you'll understand that Salvation is a process you've identified in 3 tenses. The entrance through the narrow gate is one thing. The walk along the narrow path is another and requires some collaborative work in abiding Faith-Obedience as commanded. We don't work, and cannot work until we come to Biblical Faith per Paul. Then we do work in Biblical Faith + Works and as James says, faith working together with works perfects/completes our faith and fulfills Scripture that says believing God is accounted to us as righteousness. This is all Salvation per our Text.

If it will assist you and Brian, my boast is in agreement with Paul:

NKJ Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

BNR32FAN said:

If belief in the gospel was bearing fruit then the branches who are in Christ wouldn’t be cut off for not bearing fruit in John 15:2. How could they be in Christ without believing?

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I already explained John 15:2 to you twice. For a deeper understanding of the fig tree. - Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources

Danthemailman said:

I already explained John 15:2 to you twice. For a deeper understanding of the fig tree. - Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources

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What post number were they?

BNR32FAN said:

If belief in the gospel was bearing fruit then the branches who are in Christ wouldn’t be cut off for not bearing fruit in John 15:2. How could they be in Christ without believing?

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It sounded to me like Jesus was saying they did not abide (believe/accept) in him.

Danthemailman said:

I already explained John 15:2 to you twice. For a deeper understanding of the fig tree. - Chapter 29. The Trees to Which Israel Is Compared In Scriptures - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources

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Ahh yes I remember now the old “cosmic connection” to Christ that is not supported anywhere in scripture. All that is, is someone’s excuse they pulled out of thin air to justify their inability to accept the very words that Jesus spoke. You want an example of how Jesus describes people who actually have a “cosmic connection” to Him? Read Matthew 7:21-24. He doesn’t say these people are “in Me” He says “I never knew you”. When Jesus says a person is in Him they are actually in Him not just pretending to be in Him because Jesus speaks truth not fallacies.

GDL said:

As for "works" being attached to (Faith plus works) a living, Biblical Faith, I think James makes this clear, and As I explained earlier, I think Paul agrees with him in Romans 4. I see Paul as explaining that we just need to understand that the + works is not a part of our initial Salvation ("Justification" if you prefer).

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I agree. Our “Initial Salvation” in being saved by God's grace through faith is without works. But as I am sure you agree, afterwards (In our “Continued Salvation”): “Faith” in Christ manifests the “work of faith” (of which Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). “Faith” and the “work of faith” are two sides of the same coin. For faith without works is dead indeed (James 2:17). For by the “work of faith” is how we perfect our “faith” (James 2:22) because they are connected and breath in harmony together as one.

You said:

I can show you how Paul and the writer of Hebrews use faith & obedience interchangeably. You are clearly wrong that Obedience is a Work. Apart from Faith-Obedience, there are no tenses of Salvation for us.

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I know of John 3:36 in the ESV saying this:

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36) (ESV).

The words “not obey” that is translated as “believeth not” in the KJB. The Greek word (apeitheō) is used for believe is used for the English words “not obey” elsewhere in the KJB in 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 4:17. Yet, this Greek word “apeitheō” is used as believeth not in the KJB.

So it appears that “believe” and “obey” is interchangable in John 3:36.

Source:
G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Do you have any other references of this in Scripture of “believe” being as interchangable with the word “obey”?

I would really like to honestly know.

You said:

OK. Informative & understood. I'll pray to Mary and ask her to get them to correct where they're off.

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I hope you are only being sarcastic here, brother. I would not encourage you or anyone to pray to dead people. The Bible teaches that we can only pray to GOD alone. To pray to dead people would be giving power to a person as if they are like God and that is just not possible because they have no such power to answer prayer like God can.

BNR32FAN said:

What post number were they?

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Posts #112 and #122.

MMXX said:

It sounded to me like Jesus was saying they did not abide (believe/accept) in him.

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The word abide means to remain. Do you think He was telling His 11 faithful apostles to believe/accept Him in verse 4?

Danthemailman said:

In John 15:2, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers, like Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

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We see the condemnation of Belief Alone-ism with John the Baptist.


By reading this passage we also learn that they are being told to bear forth fruit worthy of repentance; If they do not do so they axe is laid unto the root of the trees (i.e. they are the trees that are about to be cut down). John the Baptist was not telling the Jews to just have a belief alone in Jesus to bear forth much fruit so as to not be cut down.

Anyways, we learn in Revelation 2, the following truth:


Here we see this church being warned in that they had left their first love and they were even doing works. The problem with this church is that they were no longer doing the FIRST WORKS and thus they were being told to repent so as to do them otherwise their candlestick would be removed. Meaning, they would not be a part of the churches that would be saved in God's kingdom.

BNR32FAN said:

The word abide means to remain. Do you think He was telling His 11 faithful apostles to believe/accept Him in verse 4?

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I don't think Jesus was telling them He was going to condemn them to Hell unless they produced fruit, especially since they had already gone through towns preaching the good news etc. Or that He was telling them He would condemn them to Hell unless they kept working for Him.

It seems like the conclusion some make is the only thing Jesus knows how to do when it comes to disobedience or even shortcomings, is to condemn those He saved to damnation. No other kinds of punishments or consequences exists, just straight to Hell.

It's like the idea is that as a Christian you're standing on a trap door and Jesus is itching to pull the lever.

Bible Highlighter said:

I agree. Our “Initial Salvation” in being saved by God's grace through faith is without works. But as I am sure you agree, afterwards (In our “Continued Salvation”): “Faith” in Christ manifests the “work of faith” (of which Paul talks about in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11). “Faith” and the “work of faith” are two sides of the same coin. For faith without works is dead indeed (James 2:17). For by the “work of faith” is how we perfect our “faith” (James 2:22) because they are connected and breath in harmony together as one.

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Without looking closely at the verses you reference, I think we are in agreement here. Recalling our discussion before re: Salvation, I knew I could find you using phrases like "Initial Salvation" and "Continued Salvation" because we both know Salvation is a process.

Bible Highlighter said:

I know of John 3:36 in the ESV saying this:

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36) (ESV).

The words “not obey” that is translated as “believeth not” in the KJB. The Greek word (apeitheō) is used for believe is used for the English words “not obey” elsewhere in the KJB in 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 4:17. Yet, this Greek word “apeitheō” is used as believeth not in the KJB.

So it appears that “believe” and “obey” is interchangable in John 3:36.

Source:
G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

Do you have any other references of this in Scripture of “believe” being as interchangable with the word “obey”?

I would really like to honestly know.

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KJV Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed (hupakouo) the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed (pisteuo) our report? Parallelism between obedience and belief. Good translation. A more recent translation in agreement: NET Romans 10:16 But not all have obeyed the good news, for Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

Bear with me on this next one & I'll also address your observations re: “apeitheō” in John 3:36, which, BTW, I mostly agree with. I would take it a bit further and say “apeitheō” should be translated as "does not obey."

I'm going to highlight some words through this section to note as important re: faith & obedience. I'll summarize a few things at the end:

NKJ Hebrews. 3:5-4:7 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. 7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, 8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said,`They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' 11 So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest.'" 12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief (apistia) in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." 16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? 17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey (apeitheō) ? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief (apistia).
4:1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith (pistis) in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed (pisteuō) do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath,`They shall not enter My rest,'" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"; 5 and again in this place: "They shall not enter My rest." 6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience (apeitheia), 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today," after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts."

1. Firstly, there are repeated warnings here to "brethren" (3:12) re: the deceitfulness of sin, hardening our hearts, departing from the living God, rebellion, sinned, holding fast until the end, being Christ's house "if," etc. I'm sure that you do not see these as empty warnings. Nor do I. I like how all of this is contrasted with a statement re: "faithful (pistos)" Abraham.

2. RE: apeitheō: One of the reasons I see apeitheō better translated as "not obey" rather than "not believe" is seen in 3:12 where "apistia" is properly translated as "unbelief" - the alpha privative negating pistis (belief). IOW, there is a word that means no belief, so why force apeitheō to say it? At the end of it all, there's not much difference though, because faith & obedience are essentially 2 sides of the same coin, as they say, so disobedience<>unbelief.

You can see how this translation is correlating rebellion, sin, disobedience, and unbelief. There's a clear reason for this: belief is commanded, so unbelief is disobedience, rebellion, sin...

And in 3:19 apeitheō /disobedience is used in parallel with apistia / unbelief. So, this is another Faith and Obedience parallel. I think all of these highlighted words are well-translated here.

3. The same parallel between faith and obedience carries into 4:2-6. They did not mix the word/message they heard with faith parallels they did not enter in because of disobedience. No faith / no obedience - so faith /obedience.


Another few verses to consider would be Paul's essentially bookending Romans with the phrase (most literally translated) "obedience [of] faith" (1:5; 16:26) as his stated mission to the nations on behalf of Christ's name (1:5) and God's command (16:26).

I know you hold to the KJB, but look at the Greek and branch out a bit to other translations to see how they are just using the most literal translation I've shown.

One of the legitimate ways to translate this Greek phrase is something like Faith-Obedience, which is what I decided to do some time ago after studying "Faith" extensively in our Text. Some reasoning for this:

I was being facetious about praying to Mary. It was hopefully meant for Daniel's amusement.

MMXX said:

It's like the idea is that as a Christian you're standing on a trap door and Jesus is itching to pull the lever.

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And this is poor reasoning on your part meant to denigrate the observations from Scripture that differ from yours.

Do you really think this is a view of the works of grace and patience, etc., etc., etc., of our Father and our Lord that we who disagree with you have?

Maybe you should read His warnings from His Word, with a bit more care, though:

NKJ Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

NKJ Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

NKJ Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

NKJ 2 Tim. 2:24-25 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Just a few verses to suggest that there is a proper fear & trembling before God. He hates lawlessness (sin), He can be severe, He may not permit spiritual growth, He does not always grant repentance, and so on... This may balance a bit your view of His other side, which so many ultimately focus on apart from seeing such things as these in Scripture.

I for one think He's doing everything He has very, very graciously chosen to do to put up with us and save us in spite of ourselves. I also think we can push Him too far and find His severity and where He's drawn lines.

As I recall, there's a verse in Isaiah that essentially paints a picture of the Lord tapping His foot waiting to bless us. I carry this picture in my mind, while at the same time maintaining a proper fear & trembling of Him while working to accomplish salvation with Him energizing me to will and do what pleases Him. Your trap door analogy is an absurdly childish concept of the thoughts held by others and you should get a grip.

GDL said:

And this is poor reasoning on your part meant to denigrate the observations from Scripture that differ from yours.

Do you really think this is a view of the works of grace and patience, etc., etc., etc., of our Father and our Lord that we who disagree with you have?

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I think some try to manipulate via scare tactics. If you want to number yourself among them, that's up to you, but I didn't have you in mind.

GDL said:

Maybe you should read His warnings from His Word, with a bit more care, though:

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Maybe you should try to sound a tad less condescending.

GDL said:

NKJ Hebrews 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions."

NKJ Romans 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.


NKJ Hebrews 6:1-3 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will do if God permits.

NKJ 2 Tim. 2:24-25 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth

Just a few verses to suggest that there is a proper fear & trembling before God. He hates lawlessness (sin), He can be severe, He may not permit spiritual growth, He does not always grant repentance, and so on... This may balance a bit your view of His other side, which so many ultimately focus on apart from seeing such things as these in Scripture.

I for one think He's doing everything He has very, very graciously chosen to do to put up with us and save us in spite of ourselves. I also think we can push Him too far and find His severity and where He's drawn lines.

As I recall, there's a verse in Isaiah that essentially paints a picture of the Lord tapping His foot waiting to bless us. I carry this picture in my mind, while at the same time maintaining a proper fear & trembling of Him while working to accomplish salvation with Him energizing me to will and do what pleases Him. Your trap door analogy is an absurdly childish concept of the thoughts held by others and you should get a grip.

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It's easy to pull out pieces of an epistle to make it look like that's what it's saying, as opposed to what the overall message is actually saying.

My trap door analogy is how some who go overboard with preaching works salvation via scare tactics sound to me. I think others simply get too swept up in trying to save the saved.

Sanctification/ Theosis / Christification can be encouraged without resorting to such measures.

MMXX said:

What I think is that works salvation folks are all over the road. The more they go into it, the more convoluted and contradictory it gets. And I'm only going to go so far down that rabbit hole. I'm not applying that to you, because I haven't read any of your posts for quite a while and don't remember what all you've had to say. I'm just talking about proponents of works salvation in general I've come across. Really though as tangled as it gets, the whole thing boils down to, "CHRISTAINS CAN'T BE ALOWED TO THINK IT'S OKAY LIVE LIKE THE DEVIL!!!". And added to that, "If we give them an inch, they'll take a mile!". "We need to keep those naughty Christians on their toes!" "No more than that, we need to keep their toes held over hell fire!"

As for what you just posted, it sounds like you're describing Theosis, which I've been learning about here and there from teachers such as Bishop Kallistos Ware and Dr. Jordan B Cooper (who prefers the term Christification).

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A lot of theology in all camps is "all over the road." And some accuse of works salvation where none exists. And some think their protecting against works salvation when they're actually pushing a false gospel. And so goes the condition of what's called church in our day.

I'm pushing what I see the Text saying about us: a growth in our Salvation process to maturity and beyond. In Philippians 3 Paul calls those not doing this, "enemies of the cross of Christ." I'm also pushing along with Paul's instruction, having Christ formed in us. There are several such things stated in our Text that I'm pushing and pursuing as commanded in Christ under subjection to God's grace and by His Spirit.

Along with this I'm pushing for Christians to overcome sin to ever-greater degrees, because this is a part of the Salvation Christ died to provide for us.

Sinless perfection? No. But God and no one else is the one who says what the limit of our pursuits in Christ are. Theosis? No. But, again, I'll let God limit where He's taking us and what He's making of us, and I'll ask Him to show me as much as He will from His Word. I really don't think we have much of a perspective of what we are becoming in Christ.

NKJ 1 John 3:1-3 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God! Therefore the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Some of these all over the road soteriologies do their utmost to limit our commanded work per 3:3. I hope you can see that we are to be doing our part/work in purifying ourselves in Christ.