Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

Dearest Der alter am I to assume your response is ; What ?
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Topic: Propitiation

<A-1,Verb,2433,hilaskomai>
was used amongst the Greeks with the significance "to make the gods propitious, to appease, propitiate," inasmuch as their good will was not conceived as their natural attitude, but something to be earned first. This use of the word is foreign to the Greek Bible, with respect to God, whether in the Sept. or in the NT. It is never used of any act whereby man brings God into a favorable attude or gracious disposition. It is God who is "propitiated" by the vindication of His holy and righteous character, whereby, through the provision He has made in the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice of Christ, He has so dealt with sin that He can show mercy to the believing sinner in the removal of his guilt and the remission of his sins.
Thus in Luke 18:13 it signifies "to be propitious" or "merciful to" (with the person as the object of the verb), and in Heb. 2:17 "to expiate, to make propitiation for" (the object of the verb being sins); here the RV, "to make propitiation" is an important correction of the AV, "to make reconciliation." Through the "propitiation" sacrifice of Christ, he who believes upon Him is by God's own act delivered from justly deserved wrath, and comes under the covenant of grace. Never is God said to be reconciled, a fact itself indicative that the enmity exists on man's part alone, and that it is man who needs to be reconciled to God, and not God to man. God is always the same and, since He is Himself immutable, His relative attitude does change towards those who change. He can act differently towards those who come to Him by faith, and solely on the ground of the "propitiatory" sacrifice of Christ, not because He has changed, but because He ever acts according to His unchanging righteousness.

The expiatory work of the Cross is therefore the means whereby the barrier which sin interposes between God and man is broken down. By the giving up of His sinless life sacrifically, Christ annuls the power of sin to separate between God and the believer.

In the OT the Hebrew verb kaphar is connected with kopher, "a covering" (see MERCY SEAT), and is used in connection with the burnt offering, e.g., Lev. 1:4; 14:20; 16:24, the guilt offering e.g., Lev. 5:16,18, the sin offering, e.g., Lev. 4:20,26,31,35, the sin offering and burnt offering together, e.g., Lev. 5:10; 9:7, the meal offering and peace offering, e.g., Ezek. 45:15,17, as well as in other respects. It is used of the ram offered at the consecration of the high priest, Ex. 29:33, and of the blood which God gave upon the altar to make "propitiation" for the souls of the people, and that because "the life of the flesh is in the blood," Lev. 17:11, and "it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life" (RV). Man has forfeited his life on account of sin and God has provided the one and only way whereby eternal life could be bestowed, namely, by the voluntary laying down of His life by His Son, under Divine retribution. Of this the former sacrifices appointed by God were foreshadowings.

<B-1,Noun,2435,hilasterion>
akin to A, is regarded as the neuter of an adjective signifying "propitiatory." In the Sept. it is used adjectivelly in connection with epithema, "a cover," in Exod. 25:17; 37:6, of the lid of the ark (see MERCY SEAT), but it is used as a noun (without epithema), of locality, in Exod. 25:18-22; 31:7; 35:12; 37:7,8,9; Lev. 16:2,13-15; Num. 7:89, and this is its use in Heb. 9:5.

Elsewhere in the NT it occurs in Rom. 3:25, where it is used of Christ Himself; the RV text and punctuation in this verse are important: "whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, by His blood." The phrase "by His blood" is to be taken in immediate connection with "propitiation." Christ, through His expiatory death, is the Personal means by whom God shows the mercy of His justifying grace to the sinner who believes. His "blood" stands for the voluntary giving up of His life, by the shedding of His blood in expiatory sacrifice, under Divine judgment righteously due to us as sinners, faith being the sole condition on man's part.

Note: "By metonymy, 'blood' is sometimes put for 'death,' inasmuch as, blood being essential to life, Lev. 17:11, when the blood is shed life is given up, that is, death takes place. The fundamental principle on which God deals with sinners is expressed in the words 'apart from shedding of blood,' i.e., unless a death takes place, 'there is no remission' of sins, Heb. 9:22.

"But whereas the essential of the type lay in the fact that blood was shed, the essential of the antitype lies in this, that the blood shed was that of Christ. Hence, in connection with Jewish sacrifices, 'the blood' is mentioned without reference to the victim from which it flowed, but in connection with the great antitypical sacrifice of the NT the words 'the blood' never stand alone; the One Who shed the blood is invariably specified, for it is the Person that gives value to the work; the saving efficacy of the Death depends entirely upon the fact that He Who died was the Son of God." * [* From Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, p. 168.]

<B-2,Noun,2434,hilasmos>
akin to hileos ("merciful, propitious"), signifies "an expiation, a means whereby sin is covered and remitted." It is used in the NT of Christ Himself as "the propitiation," in 1 John 2:2; 4:10, signifying that He Himself, through the expiatory sacrifice of His Death, is the Personal means by whom God shows mercy to the sinner who believes on Christ as the One thus provided. In the former passage He is described as "the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." The italicized addition in the AV, "the sins of," gives a wrong interpretation. What is indicated is that provision is made for the whole world, so that no one is, by Divine predetermination, excluded from the scope of God's mercy; the efficacy of the "propitiation," however, is made actual for those who believe. In 1 John 4:10, the fact that God "sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins," is shown to be the great expression of God's love toward man, and the reason why Christians should love one another. In the Sept., Lev. 25:9; Num. 5:8; 1 Chron. 28:20; Ps. 130:4; Ezek. 44:27; Amos 8:14.
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ron4shua said:

Dearest Der alter am I to assume your response is ; What ?
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Why are you confused? Did you not understand the scripture I quoted?

Der Alter said:

I have a novel idea. Read the Bible. Here are some verses which address this question.

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law​

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For children, infants and the mentally handicapped who did/do not have the law, and could not comprehend it if they did, "sin is not imputed when there is no law, where no law is, there is no transgression."

Every culture has a religion or worship system of some kind. Most people inherently know that what Judeo-Christians consider "sin" is also wrong in their society, murder, robbery, rape, etc.


There are Christians in China, and virtually all Muslim countries.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Psa 19:1 <To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.> The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.​

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Anto9us said:

I believe in much of what you say Stephen.

I do not believe in the "assumption" you allude to.

I say we go "with the best we got" -- and of course there is a leading by the Holy Spirit that is important.

A look at Church History shows that an over-boardness on "just listen to what the Holy Ghost is saying now" can be easily twisted into "just listen to what Brother or Sister so-and-so says -- they have GOT THE GHOST and so you don't need to bother about that complicated old Bible -- just go with the latest "Thus saith the Lord"

and we are back with Montanism all over again -- "just listen to the anointed ones" -- and even Tertullian bought into it at the last

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Why would you listen to your Brother, Sister or others when you received the same Holy Spirit as they? We listen & fear of God, not fear of not-God, but fear of God (whom Jesus has told who he is). Use the Bible as a history, a tool and guide to help you, but in a search with fear and appreciation of our Father with Jesus & Our Holy Spirit within us. Fellowship is within us, even when we are with others trying to follow Jesus.

I apologize for being complicated, Jesus told us that the temple of God is within us. We yearn for fellowship and obtain it. No man is perfect here, so we try to discern all things, especially ourselves. We follow Jesus alone, and listen to the Holy Spirit (keeping much within ourselves). We try to keep our temple within us holy and clean. This isn't meant to be hard. I guess that I am trying to say that we are each responsible for our own temples within us. A preacher, a brother or sister, or anyone of great power or little isn't responsible for our temple. Our faith is to be as pure as it can in personally following Jesus. The responsibility of our faith is ours, we are well equipped by Jesus' sent Holy Spirit.

I don't know my friend. It seems hard to get the message out, but we must each work out our own salvations, for we are not a part of any religion, even when they call us part of the Christian Religion. We are a part of the family of God, having a relationship with our Father and Jesus, and not another religion. If we truly believe in Jesus, then it is truly a relationship for they interact and help us as a family.

No need to apologize for being complicated, Stephen -- we are all just trying
all have things to share -- things to teach

I apologize not for being complicated, but for being so full of pizz and vinegar

shturt678s said:

A good point?????....when totally misses the point of Matt.13:41b, "all the offenses and those that work lawlessness" "Those that work lawlessness" are persons where the offenses are part of the lawlessness perpetrated by these persons consigned (the Kingdom of God they helped to disress...) to Matt.25:41, "into the fire, eternal".

Purpose for "hell" is punishment obviously.

My end point, Mk.9:43-48, "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Soul and body at the last day. Thus the entire suffering of the damed as described, ie, inwardly and externally - HORRORS!!! Internally and externally tormented for eternity.

Old Jack only thinking out loud again, only an inconvenient and uncomfortable opinion of course. What the eternal punishment is and why.

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What? I believe that those who work lawlessness will go into the eternal fire. And obviously that eternal fire destroys those who go into it by burning them up. Also check Isaiah 66 to see what is being burnt by the fire which is not quenched and the fireproof worms that do not die. If you do check it out, you will see that the fire is burning corpses, not living people. Also the heroic worms are eating dead corpses, not living people. I don't know how many times I've had to tell people that this, yet it keeps on coming up as so called proof of eternal torment. You would think that people would someday learn.

Timothew said:

What? I believe that those who work lawlessness will go into the eternal fire. And obviously that eternal fire destroys those who go into it by burning them up. Also check Isaiah 66 to see what is being burnt by the fire which is not quenched and the fireproof worms that do not die. If you do check it out, you will see that the fire is burning corpses, not living people. Also the heroic worms are eating dead corpses, not living people. I don't know how many times I've had to tell people that this, yet it keeps on coming up as so called proof of eternal torment. You would think that people would someday learn.

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Hey, too bad your view isn't valid in the context of Mk.9:43-48 only for openers...we could all embrace hypergrace of today, party out in/out of the churches + Jesus + distress the Kingdom of God and just poof at one's passing...evaporate into thin air not having to be concerned about forever and ever being tormented inwardly and outwardly day in and day out not for just another life time, but forever and ever and ever and ever.

Old, yet uncomplicated....just thinking out loud again, Jack

shturt678s said:

Hey, too bad your view isn't valid in the context of Mk.9:43-48 only for openers...we could all embrace hypergrace of today, party out in/out of the churches + Jesus + distress the Kingdom of God and just poof at one's passing...evaporate into thin air not having to be concerned about forever and ever being tormented inwardly and outwardly day in and day out not for just another life time, but forever and ever and ever and ever.

Old, yet uncomplicated....just thinking out loud again, Jack

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Actually, My view absolutely is valid in the context of Mark 9:43-48 and "hypergrace" has absolutely nothing to do with my view the the wicked are completely and totally destroyed. But thanks for giving your unsupported opinion. I also don't know where you ever got the idea that I believe that the wicked will simply "evaporate". I believe that they will be destroyed, Just as Jesus said in Matthew 10:28.

shturt678s said:

Only a head's up from a lowest rung of the pecking order, ie, Rev.20:9, "and there fell fire from the heaven and devoured them."
Now I wonder what "...and they shall be tormented by day and night for the eons of the eons.' Not forever and ever good! Old Jack's opinion

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You got it, it means everlasting destruction and to go up like smoke, vaporized, forever as wax that melts in the fire.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

The grave, is the only hell unbelievers will get to see, not even being allowed to face God for any mercy, except for those who knew the truth, but rejected it, they will face the pain of knowing that the grave will carry the penalty of the second death.

Timothew said:

Actually, My view absolutely is valid in the context of Mark 9:43-48 and "hypergrace" has absolutely nothing to do with my view the the wicked are completely and totally destroyed. But thanks for giving your unsupported opinion. I also don't know where you ever got the idea that I believe that the wicked will simply "evaporate". I believe that they will be destroyed, Just as Jesus said in Matthew 10:28.

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I was more thinking about when I undergo my future crematory experience, ie, I talked to the person operating voicing my concern of my skull not totally evaporating...he assurred me they have a hotter fire than before, and all turns into vapor and a little dust for next of kin..I thanked him.

My point: Matt.10:28, "afraid" When one completes partying out in/out of the churches only to vaporize + a little dust, there's no "terrifying fear" (forever in the lake of fire tormented inwardly and outwardly) due to distressing the Kingdom of God., ie, one can be complacent, indifferent, and disobedient with no forever consequences? Doesn't work this way...like in today's time.

"destroy both soul (no vaporizing here as invisible) and body in Gehenna." Summarizing this is not a childlike fear, the motive of filial obedience, but the terrifying fear of God's holy, burning wrath wich would have to strike us if we yeilded to the fear of men and denied His Word and His will.

On Gehenna as a designation for hell, the place of the damed, "Soul and body in Gehenna" implies the bodily resurrection of the damned....nooooo poofing!

Old Jack just thinking out loud again.

Anto9us said:

No need to apologize for being complicated, Stephen -- we are all just trying
all have things to share -- things to teach

I apologize not for being complicated, but for being so full of pizz and vinegar

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Thank you.

everlasting destruction or everlasting torment. Either way it's not good. and either way I don't want to find out what the truth is experientially.

not believing in hell through explaining away the scriptures that tell of it, is no different than all the multitude of other scriptural truths that Christians explain away. ONe can believe God's word and believe it means there is no hell, and still be believing in God. ONe can believe there is a hell and believe that it is a truth in the word of God, and still be believing God. Faith in God and his word is what is important. one isn't a nonchristian because he doesn't get every doctrine correct. And that is what this thread is about it is about having accurate doctrine in order to be a Christian. That's what it boils down to. It boils down to having a correct understanding of the verses related to the doctrine of hell in order to be a Christian. that is what this thread means when it says one is a heretic if one doesn't believe in hell. Because heretic = nonchristian.

2ducklow said:

everlasting destruction or everlasting torment. Either way it's not good. and either way I don't want to find out what the truth is experientially.

not believing in hell through explaining away the scriptures that tell of it, is no different than all the multitude of other scriptural truths that Christians explain away. ONe can believe God's word and believe it means there is no hell, and still be believing in God. ONe can believe there is a hell and believe that it is a truth in the word of God, and still be believing God. Faith in God and his word is what is important. one isn't a nonchristian because he doesn't get every doctrine correct. And that is what this thread is about it is about having accurate doctrine in order to be a Christian. That's what it boils down to.

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Not really. The question of the thread (leaving aside all the posts that wandered off to take up related topics) is simply, "Is disbelieving in an eternal Hell a heresy?" Hell-heresy? No, I don't think it qualifies as a heresy. If anyone has information that contradicts that, I'm eager to read it.

And no, being a heretic does NOT mean that such a person is a non-Christian. BY DEFINITION, a heretic is a Christian who holds to some serious and erroneous doctrine.

Trinitarians call non Trinitarians heretics and by that they mean we aint Christians. By that they mean that only you Trinitarians are Christians. read the council of nicea that you believe in that's what it says. The council of nicea is the litmus test Trinitarians use to call non trintiarains heretics.

That's why the use of the term heretic in relationship to ones doctrine on hell isn't an appropriate word to use. Although I think the author had in mind that those who believe there isn't a hell aren't really Christians, which is why he chose the word heretic. Had he chose to say 'is believe in no hell scriptural?" then he wouldn't have been implying that those who don't believe in hell aren't Christians.

heretic = nonchristian, according to all you Trinitarians.

2ducklow said:

Trinitarians call non Trinitarians heretics and by that they mean we aint Christians.

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Maybe some of them do mean that. If they called you "ridiculous" or "dead wrong" would you interpret that as meaning "You're not a Christian?" If so, why should such mistaken name-calling upset you so. But if we return to the thread here--and what the question it asks actually is--as opposed to speculating about what someone who might use THAT word is thinking--the answer is "No." It doesn't make you a non-Christian.

By that they mean that only you Trinitarians are Christians. read the council of nicea that you believe in that's what it says. The council of nicea is the litmus test Trinitarians use to call non trintiarains heretics.

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Yes, heretics, not non-Christians.

We aren't able to see eternity only what is temporary or temporal.. in the text of Lazarus and the rich man Jesus gives us a view of the eternal there we see a man being tormented in flames.. Paul explains it here in..

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Then again Jesus affirms it in..

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Jesus told us the only way to be able to see things the way he does is in..

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

AmericanChristian91 said:

So if a Christian did not believe that some people will stay in hell and be eternally punished/tortured, and instead believed in Annihiliationism or Universal Reconciliation, is that heretical thought?

Or what if a Christian was not sure on which belief in hell to accept (and therefore was not 100% sure that an eternal hell exists)?

Just curious on people's opinions here on whether or not it is heresy to not accept 100% the traditional view of hell.

PS: This may belong in the unorthodox section, thought I did want to see the opinion of people who are orthodox when it comes to this matter.

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the eternal judgment is just a warning for the oncoming wrath, while the important is the overall salvation, that is why St. Paul says:

Hebrews 6:1-9 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak."

because the more encompassing the salvation is, the better for everyone in the long(est) run

Blessings

everready said:

We aren't able to see eternity only what is temporary or temporal.. in the text of Lazarus and the rich man Jesus gives us a view of the eternal there we see a man being tormented in flames.. Paul explains it here in..

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Then again Jesus affirms it in..

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Jesus told us the only way to be able to see things the way he does is in..

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

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Albion said:

Maybe some of them do mean that. If they called you "ridiculous" or "dead wrong" would you interpret that as meaning "You're not a Christian?"

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yea yea you Trinitarians pretend like almost no Trinitarian considers non Trinitarians to be non Christian when the truth is it's the doctrine of your Trinitarian churches, and you guys expouse it all the time.

Albion said:

If so, why should such mistaken name-calling upset you so.

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why does it upset you?

Alboion said:

But if we return to the thread here--

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all these threads wander all over the place.

Albion said:

and what the question it asks actually is--as opposed to speculating about what someone who might use THAT word is thinking--the answer is "No." It doesn't make you a non-Christian.

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heretic is a slanderous word. it's just like calling someone and idiot. forget the definition of the word, people use the word heretic to slander others.

Albion said:

Yes, heretics, not non-Christians.

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I looked for a smiley with it's tongue sticking out but they don't have that one. but you get the picture.
Hey this is just like being back in the 2nd grade.

2ducklow said:

I looked for a smiley with it's tongue sticking out but they don't have that one.

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You didn't understand a thing that I explained to you, did you?