Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

he-man said:

What do you suppose and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and there was found no place for them could possibly mean in Rev 20:9, 11?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> thembefore me. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#964;&#969; to slay utterly; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#940;&#950;&#969;, later &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;-&#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#969; Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A &#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -&#958;&#969; LXX Ez.16.40 :— slaughter, murder

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many.
H2491 &#1495;&#1500;&#1500; cha&#770;la&#770;l nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
Isa 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink
3 Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the false accusers that deceived them were cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

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Only a head's up from a lowest rung of the pecking order, ie, Rev.20:9, "and there fell fire from the heaven and devoured them." It is Ezek.38:22 all over again but multiplied a millionfold. Not so literal!

Now fire from heaven blasted the deceit, not the earth dwellers.

What it thinks that it really is, what it only pretends to be sort of thing...gets blasted.

Now I wonder what "...and they shall be tormented by day and night for the eons of the eons.' Not forever and ever good!

Old Jack's opinion

Anto9us said:

You've proved it yourself, HeMan -- "tormented day and night for ever and ever." cannot jive with ANIHILATION -- it is diametrically opposed to it -- one cannot be tormented for ANY length of time if they no longer exist, savvy?

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You did not answer the first question:
What do you suppose and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them; and there was found no place for them could possibly mean in Rev 20:9, 11?

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

2Th 1:7 and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might

Luk 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay <G2695> thembefore me. &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#945;&#769;&#964;&#964;&#969; to slay utterly; &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;&#963;&#966;&#940;&#950;&#969;, later &#954;&#945;&#964;&#945;-&#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#969; Luc.Sacr.12 (Pass. - A &#963;&#966;&#940;&#964;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#952;&#945;&#953; Jul. Or.5.174a ): fut. -&#958;&#969; LXX Ez.16.40 :— slaughter, murder

And what does fire do to its victims if it is not extinguished? It burns them up—exactly as John the Baptist announced concerning sinners' doom in his word about Jesus' eschatological wrath: "He will clear his threshing floor . . . burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12).
"
Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain <H2491> of the LORD shall be many.
H2491 &#1495;&#1500;&#1500; cha&#770;la&#770;l nm. dead, fatal casualty, fallen

Isa 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
3 Their slain <H2491> also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Anto9us said:

That one verse you quote blows Anihilation out of the water - big time - a being who has had his existence snuffed out altogether cannot - by definition - be "tormented day and night for ever and ever" he is either out of existence - or he is being tormented -- but he cannot be both at once

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Don't you think that is figurative language the sames as "the heavens shall vanish away like smoke" they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff ?

Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look on the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven, thou wilt drive them away; as wax melteth before the fire, the wicked shall perish at the presence of God.

Hos_13:3 Therefore they shall be as the morning cloud, and as the early dew that passeth away, as the chaff that is driven with the whirlwind out of the floor, and as the smoke out of the chimney.

Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

Do you really think smoke literally lasts forever or doesn't it really mean vaporized and Anihilation?

Rev 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

I haven't been there recently, but do you thinkSodom and Gomorrha is still burning or does it mean they vanish away like vapour of smoke; Anihilated eternally?
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

What do you think this means?
Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

Der Alter said:

An abundance of bloviation but it does not addess my post and I see no relevance to your previous post. I do not deny that there is figurative language in the Bible but everything in the Bible is not one big metaphor. There are a few folks in this forum who find figurative language in virtually everything. The problem is that they all have different explanations what the so-called figurative language "really means." And lo and behold the figurative language just happens to prove their individual false doctrines and supposedly disproves other views. So which figurative view should I follow this one or one of the others? My question is why has all this figurative, symbolic language not been seen by the church for 2000 years +/- and the Jews 1000 years +/- before that?

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Bloviation? My hind leg!
Maybe someday you will find types and anti-type are not figurative but are shadows. Until then, I bid you adieu.

I will answer whichever questions I want; I am not aware that anyone died and anyone else was made the Boss of me -- and I will repeat that "being tormented" denotes CONSCIOUSNESS

and I will ask of anyone:

can a non-existent being experience "being tormented"

and I don't care at this point whether the 'torment' is actual flame and physical pain of burning -- or whether it is 'sorrow and regret and mental torment at being separated from God" the NATURE of the torment does not matter -- what is germane is

is CONSCIOUSNESS required for someone to experience any kind of 'torment' or not?

It is a yes or no question -- addressed to anyone in this thread:

can a non-existent being experience 'torment' of any kind - for any length of time; be it 'forever and ever' or "unto eons of eons" or even TWO YEARS

can a non-existent being experience TORMENT for even two years?

yes or no ?

Anto9us said:

I will answer whichever questions I want; I am not aware that anyone died and anyone else was made the Boss of me -- and I will repeat that "being tormented" denotes CONSCIOUSNESS

and I will ask of anyone:

can a non-existent being experience "being tormented"

and I don't care at this point whether the 'torment' is actual flame and physical pain of burning -- or whether it is 'sorrow and regret and mental torment at being separated from God" the NATURE of the torment does not matter -- what is germane is

is CONSCIOUSNESS required for someone to experience any kind of 'torment' or not?

It is a yes or no question -- addressed to anyone in this thread:

can a non-existent being experience 'torment' of any kind - for any length of time; be it 'forever and ever' or "unto eons of eons" or even TWO YEARS

can a non-existent being experience TORMENT for even two years?

yes or no ?

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I agree with you. BUT...the lake of fire is NOT a general punishment. It is reserved for those that took the mark of the beast during the Tribulation period. The two resurrections form a PAIR...the first and second. Too much reading INTO and not drawing FROM the Word.
The FIRST resurrection is the... reward... for those who were beheaded and would live and reign with Christ for a 1,000 years in the New Jerusalem descending DOWN from Heaven. They are the Pearl of Great Price. The Bride of the LAMB.
The SECOND resurrection are those that did not deserve the first. They saved their lives in THIS world but lost that life eternal after their resurrection by being tossed into the lake of fire. They were HURT of the second death.

Matt 10:38-39
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

I don't know who -- if anyone -- would say that SALVATION depends on Council of Nicea... This CF Forum seems to hold that orthodoxy is defined by Nicene Creed, technically in the later version from council of Constantinople - if we wish to split hairs.

There are certainly non-Trinitarians who have a full view of the Deity of Christ and are therefore definitely "not Hairy-Tick"

But SOMETIMES a denial of Trinity and a denial of Christ's Godhood are found together -- whereas I never heard of anyone who "believed in the Trinity" while at the same time denied that Jesus was God

Council of Nicea and Council of Constantinople may be about 50 years apart - the latter being about 381 A.D - when the final, polished form of NICENE CREED was designated.

Are we to assume there WAS NO ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY prior to 381 A.D.? That would be like saying there was no such thing as THE LAW OF GRAVITY until Isaac Newton defined it

"I agree with you. BUT...the lake of fire is NOT a general punishment. It is reserved for those that took the mark of the beast during the Tribulation period."

I am not sure of that exactly -- it says of the Lake of Fire -- "Death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; the sea gave up the dead in it"; etc -- so I cannot be too sure that it is not a 'general' punishment

I dunno that LOF is not a final destination for ALL who reject Christ; or rejected God period even in OT times

Is the lake of fire like Crater Lake, or is it more like Lake Michigan?

Although I have visited Oregon -- I never have seen Crater Lake.

I have seen Lake Michigan -- and it definitely looked like hell to me -- so I say LOF is more like Lake Michigan.

Bring your fishing gear and cast your line/hook/sinker into our Hawaiian hot lava lake, and post on the Youtube sort of thing...instant 15 minutes of fame and fortune, however the authorities may want you evaluated?

"Lake of fire" = "Gehenna" = "hell" = "hades" = "Tartarus" = "Sheol" (narrow sense). = "Punishement" for ever and ever and ever.

btw not so much to do with an obvious rejection of Jesus, but more with rejecting the truth possibly viewing as fallacious as doesn't align with one's denomination sort of thing (IIThess.2:10b). Will have plenty of time to think about it, ie, not having an agape of truth rejecting it for whatever reason.

Old Jack just thinking out loud again avoiding that volcano....not going to catch me fishing there for men.

Anto9us said:

"I agree with you. BUT...the lake of fire is NOT a general punishment. It is reserved for those that took the mark of the beast during the Tribulation period."

I am not sure of that exactly -- it says of the Lake of Fire -- "Death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; the sea gave up the dead in it"; etc -- so I cannot be too sure that it is not a 'general' punishment

I dunno that LOF is not a final destination for ALL who reject Christ; or rejected God period even in OT times

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Anto9us said:

I don't know who -- if anyone -- would say that SALVATION depends on Council of Nicea... This CF Forum seems to hold that orthodoxy is defined by Nicene Creed, technically in the later version from council of Constantinople - if we wish to split hairs.

There are certainly non-Trinitarians who have a full view of the Deity of Christ and are therefore definitely "not Hairy-Tick"

But SOMETIMES a denial of Trinity and a denial of Christ's Godhood are found together -- whereas I never heard of anyone who "believed in the Trinity" while at the same time denied that Jesus was God

Council of Nicea and Council of Constantinople may be about 50 years apart - the latter being about 381 A.D - when the final, polished form of NICENE CREED was designated.

Are we to assume there WAS NO ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY prior to 381 A.D.? That would be like saying there was no such thing as THE LAW OF GRAVITY until Isaac Newton defined it

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It matters not to those who believe that Jesus is God that the bible says all the fullness of the godhood is IN HIM. Because all those who believe Jesus is god change it to 'all the fullness of the Godhood IS HIM. And they have no difficulty changing the word of God to make it say what they want it to say. If the godhood is in him then it is not him, If the godhood is him then it isn't in him. This simple logic is totally nonunderstandable to all those professing that Jesus is God. And not only that, but they also agree that anyone who doesn't change "all the fullness of the Godhood dwells in him" to "all the fullness of the Godhood is him" is a heretic and not even a Christian.

AmericanChristian91 said:

So if a Christian did not believe that some people will stay in hell and be eternally punished/tortured, and instead believed in Annihiliationism or Universal Reconciliation, is that heretical thought?

Or what if a Christian was not sure on which belief in hell to accept (and therefore was not 100% sure that an eternal hell exists)?

Just curious on people's opinions here on whether or not it is heresy to not accept 100% the traditional view of hell.

PS: This may belong in the unorthodox section, thought I did want to see the opinion of people who are orthodox when it comes to this matter.

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no I don't think as long as there is no accusation of God if there is a hell and someone goes there ...and you state it as just speculation.
so, well a long as you don't try and use the bible to prove it
..or do some kind of accusations of God , or his word..

I mean I used to say things like

" God doesn't tell us much about what happens in the millennium and in the last age / 8thday..

so if he chooses to forgive ( which by the way he has already done).. and then they choose to except that forgiveness which is the real issue here and alway has been , the issue is their sins and them excepting his forgiveness and thus admitting he had the right to except them or no to except them . then that is all his business and who was I to disagree with him if they get in somehow.." but that was just my speculation and I stated it as such.. because I didn't know and or study it and refused to make a judgment on a matter I didn't understand yet and had not questioned to that date..

but where questioning or anything more than speculations about hell crosses a line I can't deal with is when they blame God for their own sin and claim He has no right to demand they bow their knee and repent/ turn and to except the forgiveness offered FOR their sins..
who are they that they can judge Jesus and his forgiveness or his creation .

or when like MY father just told me the other day
"jesus blood failed if one person goes to hell" that is blasphemy.
who is he that he can judge God, his spirit and his plan.
he is standing as God's accuser.
that WILL NOT work out well for him.


now I also believe that there is another plan afoot for all those who never had the chance.. that I don't want to talk about because I can't prove it.. , but just to say The father God proves over and over from Abraham, Boaz , Christ , Moses , Joseph , Esther , and many many more.. he loves those who redeem others.. and verses like "No great love is there that a man lay down his life for a friend".

then there is this parable

Luk 16:1
Jesus told his disciples: &#8220;There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions.

Luk 16:2
So he called him in and asked him, &#8216;What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.&#8217;

Luk 16:3
&#8220;The manager said to himself, &#8216;What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I&#8217;m not strong enough to dig, and I&#8217;m ashamed to beg&#8212;

Luk 16:4
I know what I&#8217;ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.&#8217;

Luk 16:5
&#8220;So he called in each one of his master&#8217;s debtors. He asked the first, &#8216;How much do you owe my master?&#8217;

Luk 16:6
&#8220;&#8201;&#8216;Nine hundred gallonsfn of olive oil,&#8217; he replied. &#8220;The manager told him, &#8216;Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.&#8217;

Luk 16:7
&#8220;Then he asked the second, &#8216;And how much do you owe?&#8217; &#8220;&#8201;&#8216;A thousand bushelsfn of wheat,&#8217; he replied. &#8220;He told him, &#8216;Take your bill and make it eight hundred.&#8217;

Luk 16:8
&#8220;The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.

Luk 16:9
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

Luk 16:10
&#8220;Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much.

Luk 16:11
So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches?

Luk 16:12
And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else&#8217;s property, who will give you property of your own?

how this relates to hell and salvation, I will never tell..
but this I know He will never "save" anyone who didn't want it.

shturt678s said:

Bring your fishing gear and cast your line/hook/sinker into our Hawaiian hot lava lake, and post on the Youtube sort of thing...instant 15 minutes of fame and fortune, however the authorities may want you evaluated?

"Lake of fire" = "Gehenna" = "hell" = "hades" = "Tartarus" = "Sheol" (narrow sense). = "Punishement" for ever and ever and ever.

btw not so much to do with an obvious rejection of Jesus, but more with rejecting the truth possibly viewing as fallacious as doesn't align with one's denomination sort of thing (IIThess.2:10b). Will have plenty of time to think about it, ie, not having an agape of truth rejecting it for whatever reason.

Old Jack just thinking out loud again avoiding that volcano....not going to catch me fishing there for men.

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There will be a day when Jesus will rule over Israel IN THE LAND and Gehenna is the VISIBLE "Hell". It is a LITERAL place where the fires have gone out but will be re-kindled in the future. God will be judge, jury AND executioner and man will have nothing to say. Ananias and Sapphira were just a FORETASTE of that Kingdom judgment.

Do the fires and smoke of Sodom necessarily have to be LITERAL and go up forever and ever? I have a good friend who wrote a great song about the "smoke going up from Sodom" and people could see it from Zoar and prayed for the Sodomites but it was no use -- so the smoke may not literally be going up from there to this day -- but in my friend's mind and imagination the smoke was still a REAL THING present in his mind and he wrote a song about it...

"the Pleroma dwelleth bodily in Him" -- well I never meant to get in a fight with any not-Godder about that verse; I guess I am just an unenlightened Jesus-is-God'er

I appreciate everybody in this thread and on this UDD Forum

I love ya all -- Hell-No'ers -- Not-God'ers -- Soul-Sleepers -- Literalists -- Figurativeists

In the final analysis, it doesn't even matter who

I

would call heretic

aint no emergency meeting of the Sanhedrin that I gotta go to tonight

I wouldn't be qualified anyhow

Anto9us said:

That one verse you quote blows Anihilation out of the water - big time - a being who has had his existence snuffed out altogether cannot - by definition - be "tormented day and night for ever and ever"

he is either out of existence - or he is being tormented -- but he cannot be both at once

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Could the assumption that the Bible is perfect and handed to us from God himself be a problem that persists to give us a lot of difficulty in understanding God better? I know that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are what they are: perfect & holy, but the writings of man being canonized aren't made perfect to make us less imperfect. We don't canonize ourself into a perfection of knowledge. There is a flaw here. The Bible is the best that we got, unless the Holy Spirit living within us (for those who have accepted Christ and follow him) teaches us new knowledge that we have need of. I have a problem with man running around canonizing an important book, churches, theologies, its own doctrine and whatever they feel led to do or have felt led to do. Walking through our faith without proper leadership is a major problem. Stay with the Rock and follow him alone and always. Don't live and die for sand or other foundations. Jesus and His Gospel we should listen to and stay there always.

My opinions aren't backed by much, except simple logic and accepting the teachings and commands of Christ. Not as backed and powerful as those who believe in their own perfecting hands.

I believe in much of what you say Stephen.

I do not believe in the "assumption" you allude to.

I say we go "with the best we got" -- and of course there is a leading by the Holy Spirit that is important.

A look at Church History shows that an over-boardness on "just listen to what the Holy Ghost is saying now" can be easily twisted into "just listen to what Brother or Sister so-and-so says -- they have GOT THE GHOST and so you don't need to bother about that complicated old Bible -- just go with the latest "Thus saith the Lord"

and we are back with Montanism all over again -- "just listen to the anointed ones" -- and even Tertullian bought into it at the last

shturt678s said:

Now I wonder what "...and they shall be tormented by day and night for the eons of the eons.' Not forever and ever good! Old Jack's opinion

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deleted

Greetings Saints , below is a repost of a " what-if " story I posted three years ago at another site .

If there is a Creator Entity consisting of pure love , for instance ? Why do horrible things befall &#8220;innocents&#8221; ?

One variation of scores I've heard is the following .
In a small village in the remotest reaches of central Africa no Christen missionary had visited , a 11 year old girl dies in childbirth , the infant follows it's mother a few weeks latter . The youngster had been brutalized for some time by her mothers numerous men friends , she may have lived through the ordeal , had not advanced malnutrition been part & parcel why she couldn't escape when old enough to run .
So , here we are , two souls destined to eternal damnation according to most orthodox logical reasoning , Christen thinking & no fault of the innocent damned .

The question , is this pure love , by any stretch of your imagination , exercised by The Supreme Being worthy of Praise & Worship? If , and I'm sure it has thousands of thousands of times sense Creation , happened in like manner or a variation of this story ?

Is there anything a believer can say to a naysayer , besides oops , these two where not on the approved list ?

The Supreme Being must be venerated no matter who is or is not selected for burning for ever & ever ?

I can't remember getting any responses .
The servant ron .

ron4shua said:

Greetings Saints , below is a repost of a " what-if " story I posted three years ago at another site .

If there is a Creator Entity consisting of pure love , for instance ? Why do horrible things befall “innocents” ?

One variation of scores I've heard is the following .
In a small village in the remotest reaches of central Africa no Christen missionary had visited , a 11 year old girl dies in childbirth , the infant follows it's mother a few weeks latter . The youngster had been brutalized for some time by her mothers numerous men friends , she may have lived through the ordeal , had not advanced malnutrition been part & parcel why she couldn't escape when old enough to run .
So , here we are , two souls destined to eternal damnation according to most orthodox logical reasoning , Christen thinking & no fault of the innocent damned .

The question , is this pure love , by any stretch of your imagination , exercised by The Supreme Being worthy of Praise & Worship? If , and I'm sure it has thousands of thousands of times sense Creation , happened in like manner or a variation of this story ?

Is there anything a believer can say to a naysayer , besides oops , these two where not on the approved list ?

The Supreme Being must be venerated no matter who is or is not selected for burning for ever & ever ?

I can't remember getting any responses .
The servant ron .

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I have a novel idea. Read the Bible. Here are some verses which address this question.