Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

Anto9us · Sep 13, 2014

Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

---

Obviously, Isaiah must have been influenced by Greek Thought...

Maybe this idea came from IN BETWEEN 1st and 2nd Isaiah; but - no -

that is still well before Hellenistic period in any case

maybe it is a GLOSS -- and the redactor was NOT AWARE that references to any idea of resurrection were not appropriate to Hebrew thought...

that's probably it.

Angelquill · Sep 13, 2014

Anto9us said:
Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

---

Obviously, Isaiah must have been influenced by Greek Thought...

Maybe this idea came from IN BETWEEN 1st and 2nd Isaiah; but - no -

that is still well before Hellenistic period in any case

maybe it is a GLOSS -- and the redactor was NOT AWARE that references to any idea of resurrection were not appropriate to Hebrew thought...

that's probably it.

Maybe I missed something.
What does this have to do with Greek thought?

Now, I'm no scholar...but I don't recall any tales in Greek mythology about anyone being raised from the dead.

Where did you get this passage? I don't recall seeing this in my Bible, either...

rick357 · Sep 13, 2014

Anto9us said:
Isa 26:19

Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

---

Obviously, Isaiah must have been influenced by Greek Thought...

Maybe this idea came from IN BETWEEN 1st and 2nd Isaiah; but - no -

that is still well before Hellenistic period in any case

maybe it is a GLOSS -- and the redactor was NOT AWARE that references to any idea of resurrection were not appropriate to Hebrew thought...

that's probably it.

Resurection is hebrew thought not greek...but resurection was from the grave not some land of the dead

rick357 · Sep 13, 2014

Tzaousios said:
In my opinion, such an assertion reveals a political commitment to the rather prejudicial attitude of "Hebrew Roots" type movements towards the entrance of gentiles into the church. This is in addition to a pejorative, anti-Catholic view of church history.

Gentiles, that is, Greeks, Romans, barbarians, etc. did not come into the church with the same intellectual and cultural backgrounds as Jews who converted to Christianity. It sounds rather prejudicial and legalistic to demand that they conform to a supposed "Jewish foundation" when they are one with Jews in Christ.

Since Jesus is the jewish Messiah and has said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel.... to which tree Paul says we as Gentiles have been grafted in.... to which the idea of a disciple is to become as his master is... so our belief system must be the same as that was held by Jesus not that which was held by the pagans

Tzaousios · Sep 13, 2014

rick357 said:
Since Jesus is the jewish Messiah and has said himself that he came for the lost sheep of Israel.... to which tree Paul says we as Gentiles have been grafted in.... to which the idea of a disciple is to become as his master is... so our belief system must be the same as that was held by Jesus not that which was held by the pagans

Nevertheless, all are one in Christ. Still, though, the assertion that eternity in Hell is a "Greek" or "pagan" importation into Christianity and a rejection of "Hebrew thought" has not been firmly established. If anything, it is a case of Parallelomania rather than something with a firm historical and exegetical foundation.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 13, 2014

rick357 said:
Resurection is hebrew thought not greek...but resurection was from the grave not some land of the dead

Originally Posted by Anto9us

Isa 26:19
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

---
Obviously, Isaiah must have been influenced by Greek Thought...

Maybe this idea came from IN BETWEEN 1st and 2nd Isaiah; but - no - that is still well before Hellenistic period in any case maybe it is a GLOSS -- and the redactor was NOT AWARE that references to any idea of resurrection were not appropriate to Hebrew thought...

that's probably it.

Anyone else here notice that the exact form of the LXX greek word αναστησονται in Isaiah 26:19 is used in only 2 verses of the NT...Matt 12:41 and 1 Thess 4:16.

The literal rendering is "shall be resurrecting/standing up"

Just thought that was interesting......

http://biblehub.com/isaiah/26-19.htm

New American Standard Bible
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

King James Bible
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 ana-sthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41
`Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it,
that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven,
and the dead-ones in Christ shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First,

.

Anto9us · Sep 13, 2014

uh

Angel

that was the point -- it's (gasp) SARCASM

it is NOT Greek thought -- has nuthin to do with it

the point was to show that resurrection was indeed a part of Hebrew thought WELL BEFORE what we know of as "Greek THought"

What do you mean -- where did I get the passage?

Isa 26:19 - like I said.

What is in YOUR Bible for Isaiah 26:19 ?

---

and Rick -- much merit in what you say - that OT resurrection thought was MAINLY "from Sheol - from the grave" -- but also we consider King Saul asking the witch of Endor to raise

the SPIRIT of Samuel from "the realm of the dead" --

where Samuel's spirit was consciously residing; or at the very least BECAME CONSCIOUS as he was 'called up' -- and Samuel's spirit was apparently ROUSED UP --ostensibly even against his will - he appeared in spirit-form CONSCIOUSLY when King Saul had the necromancer 'call him up'... he talked to Saul from beyond the grave -- so the story goes

i.e.

- who called me up? etc

shturt678s · Sep 13, 2014

By Faith Alone said:
Starting at the bottom rung of the ladder in any case. The NT did not come out of a vacuum.

But it didn't come out of English thus it's best if one tries to walk in the ancient's shoes in order to receive a valid interpretation from the Holy Spirit.

Old Jack's opinion at the bottom of the pecking order...bottom rung of my ladder is broke, have to start from the 2nd rung.

rick357 · Sep 13, 2014

Anto9us said:
uh

Angel

that was the point -- it's (gasp) SARCASM

it is NOT Greek thought -- has nuthin to do with it

the point I sto show that resurrection was indeed a part of Hebrew thought WELL BEFORE what we know of as "Greek THought"

What do you mean -- where did I get the passage?

Isa 26:19

like I said

and Rick -- much merit in what you say - that OT resurrection thought was MAINLY "from Sheol - from the grave" -- but also we consider King Saul asking th ewitch of Endor ro raise the SPIRIT of Samuel from "the realm of the dead" -- where Samuel's spirit was consciously residing -- and Samuel's spirit was apparently ROUSED UP --ostensibly even against his will

i.e.

- who called me up? etc

The spirit returns to God...the soul remains in the earth till resurection(the souls of believers are now in hidden in christ under the alter of heaven) the grave is where Samual was called up from the grave....one factor wich lead to Hebrew understanding of how resurection worked. Roused up is to wake as in sleep

Anto9us · Sep 13, 2014

Lexicon :: Strong's H6965 - quwm

I doubt if Isaiah was aware what Greek word would be translated for his "kum" centuries after he wrote in Hebrew

and a Septuagint was written

He also used almah as in an 'almah' shall conceieve -- which can indicate

'a young woman of marriageable age'

rather than NECESSARILY an actual "virgin" as indicated by the Septuagint Greek's PARTHENOS

so sometimes Septuagint renderings are not as accurate

Isaiah thought in Hebrew - wrote in Hebrew -- and talked about dead people rising up well before the Septuagint used a root of of the Greek word Anastasia to translate his KUM

I have already pointed out the spirit of Samuel being called up -- to show that Hebrew thought did contain elements of a "conscious afterlife" --

above and beyond a mere fact of someone's BODY lying in Sheol, unconscious and unknowing of anything --

not that there were not ALSO other OT scriptures which DID indicate a lying dead in the ground unaware of anything -- BOTH elements (conscious afterlife and lying in Sheol knowing nothing) were parts of Hebrew thought (imo)

Hebrew thought perhaps was not consistent and homogenous in describing people after death, but I do not feel that those elements which saw a conscious after-life state depended in any way on "Greek thought"

Greek "thought" and Greek language itself -- was at a pretty ancient stage at the time of Isaiah the son of Amoz --

shturt678s · Sep 13, 2014

rick357 said:
The spirit returns to God...the soul remains in the earth till resurection(the souls of believers are now in hidden in christ under the alter of heaven) the grave is where Samual was called up from the grave....one factor wich lead to Hebrew understanding of how resurection worked. Roused up is to wake as in sleep

Only a head's up, the soul contains the invisable spirit, and immediately upon passing enters heaven or hell leaving their bodies behind. No soul snoozing.

Old Jack's opinion

Angelquill · Sep 13, 2014

Anto9us said:
Lexicon :: Strong's H6965 - quwm

I doubt if Isaiah was aware what Greek word would be translated for his "kum" centuries after he wrote in Hebrew

and a Septuagint was written

He also used almah as in an 'almah' shall conceieve -- which can indicate

'a young woman of marriageable age'

rather than NECESSARILY an actual "virgin" as indicated by the Septuagint Greek's PARTHENOS

so sometimes Septuagint renderings are not as accurate

Isaiah thought in Hebrew - wrote in Hebrew -- and talked about dead people rising up well before the Septuagint used a root of of the Greek word Anastasia to translate his KUM

I have already pointed out the spirit of Samuel being called up -- to show that Hebrew thought did contain elements of a "conscious afterlife" --

above and beyond a mere fact of someone's BODY lying in Sheol, unconscious and unknowing of anything --

not that there were not ALSO other OT scriptures which DID indicate a lying dead in the ground unaware of anything -- BOTH elements (conscious afterlife and lying in Sheol knowing nothing) were parts of Hebrew thought (imo)

Hebrew thought perhaps was not consistent and homogenous in describing people after death, but I do not feel that those elements which saw a conscious after-life state depended in any way on "Greek thought"

Greek "thought" and Greek language itself -- was at a pretty ancient stage at the time of Isaiah the son of Amoz --

I did mention that I'm no scholar...I think...
anyway, I'm still not sure what you're getting at, here.
I still think I must have missed something.

I think the idea of a Hadean "underworld" where the dead remain conscious for eternity does come from Greek thought.
Now, the notion that the dead sleep in the earth, while the spirit goes back to God is something else.

I am willing to learn...

Anto9us · Sep 13, 2014

Granted, this would be LATE Hebrew thought -- but at the time of Jesus -- well before the crucifixion/resurrection had occurred -- we have the Transfiguration - where Moses and Elijah appeared CONSCIOUSLY talking with Jesus -- heard by a few disciples

Obviously Moses and Elijah were not "asleep til the resurrection" - they were talkin with Jesus before the Cross

granted -- allegedly Elijah didnt die - but Moses did

Tzaousios · Sep 13, 2014

Angelquill said:
I am willing to learn...

I replied to you in post #791. Thanks.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 13, 2014

Anyone care to comment on the 3 verses I put up in this post concerning the LXX greek word for "resurrection"? Thanks.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7840557/#post66316693

.

Anto9us · Sep 13, 2014

"where the dead remain conscious for eternity"

if they remain there, then they don't get resurrected

yes Angel -- Greek thought had a Hadean underworld -- as far back as Homer, as old as Isaiah --

but I am unaware of Greek thought that anyone would be RESSURECTED from such a Hadean underworld - permanently BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE in a body on this earth -- such as in Job

I know that my redeemer liveth and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth, and when worms destroy this body YET IN MY FLESH SHALL I SEE GOD

that's Job - that's HEBREW thought

Anto9us · Sep 13, 2014

well, yeah, LittleLamb -- especially in the Thessalonians verse -- anasthsontai is used about BODIES being permanently BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE

that's RESSURECTION - Hebrew thought -- way beyond a Greek Hadean underworld where 'one stays there forever'

daylight and dark between getting resurrected and remaining in hades forever, doncha think?

which do YOU want?

Angelquill · Sep 13, 2014

Anto9us said:
Granted, this would be LATE Hebrew thought -- but at the time of Jesus -- well before the crucifixion/resurrection had occurred -- we have the Transfiguration - where Moses and Elijah appeared CONSCIOUSLY talking with Jesus -- heard by a few disciples

Obviously Moses and Elijah were not "asleep til the resurrection" - they were talkin with Jesus before the Cross

First of all, Moses and Elijah were both special cases.

Elijah would not be the best example, since he was "taken up" while he was still alive:
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Where ever Moses was or whatever he was doing, it looks as if Elijah was in heaven.

And Moses was "buried" by God, Himself, and no human being ever knew where his grave was. Did he go down into sheol? Maybe...or maybe not.

In any case, God could very easily have called them to come to speak with Him, no matter where they were. It wouldn't matter if they were conscious or not, would it?

rick357 · Sep 13, 2014

Anto9us said:
Granted, this would be LATE Hebrew thought -- but at the time of Jesus -- well before the crucifixion/resurrection had occurred -- we have the Transfiguration - where Moses and Elijah appeared CONSCIOUSLY talking with Jesus -- heard by a few disciples

Obviously Moses and Elijah were not "asleep til the resurrection" - they were talkin with Jesus before the Cross

granted -- allegedly Elijah didnt die - but Moses did

Yes a tricky verse for those who believe they have it figured out....I do not make that claim but instead countinue to search for a clear picture....but I know I wont find it in pagan beliefs....or dantes fable

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 13, 2014

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 ana-sthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41
`Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it,
that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command, in voice of chief-messenger, and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven,
and the dead-ones in Christ shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First,

Anto9us said:
well, yeah, LittleLamb -- especially in the Thessalonians verse -- anasthsontai is used about BODIES being permanently BROUGHT BACK TO LIFE

that's RESSURECTION - Hebrew thought -- way beyond a Greek Hadean underworld where 'one stays there forever'

daylight and dark between getting resurrected and remaining in hades forever, doncha think?

which do YOU want?

Both of the bolded greek words are used in Matt 12 concerning the Ninevites and Queen of the south.
One means to literally "stand up" and the other means to "rouse/waken".

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 ana-sthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41
`Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it,

Matt 12:42
A Queen of the south shall be being roused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning it.

450. anistemi an-is'-tay-mee from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--
1453. egeiro eg-i'-ro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep, from sitting or lying, from disease, from death;

http://www.christianforums.com/t5617198/
She who sits as queen, not widow, never mourns

.

Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

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