Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

MoreCoffee · Sep 8, 2014

Angelquill said:
I find that it helps to look at these verses in their context, rather than to pick out a particular verse that seems to agree with our preconceived notions and put our own "spin" on it.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now, we see that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Now, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I can figure out that, if hell is the lake of fire, it can't very well be tossed into the lake of fire. That just doesn't make any sense.

The word used for "hell" here is "sheol"...which literally means "the grave".

It isn't sheol you know, it's hades. Sheol is a Hebrew word and Revelation is written in Greek. Hades is a Greek word and that is why it is used in Revelation 20:14. Hades means "obscure, dark, invisible. Hades, the region of departed spirits of the lost (Luke 16:23)" [The Complete Word Study Dictionary] which is not quite the same thing as "the grave". I hope you do not mind me asking but have you been studying with Jehovah's Witnesses?

So, what is being said is that the grave, along with it's nasty companion, death itself, are being tossed into what would seem to be God's trash burn pile.

So, what happens to stuff that gets thrown in there? Well, it does tell us that "death is no more", so there's a hint. Besides, the verse clearly says that the lake of fire is "the second death".

Next, we are told that "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Now, again...I'm no scholar...just a simple bard...but even I can figure out that the fate of these people is going to be pretty much the same as everything else that goes into the burn pile.

Now, the first death is the death of the body. So, the "second death" must be the death of the spirit.
Nowhere in the Bible, at least not so far as I've found in some fifty two years of reading it, does it say that we have an immortal soul. In fact, we are very clearly told that eternal life is a gift, which would indicate that it is something we don't already have.

These are a couple of the reasons why I am rethinking my belief in "eternal torture".

And, yes...I do have a problem with the idea that a God Who says that He is love, could stand to torture people forever. He is already very sad at the very idea that any should perish...let's not make it any harder on Him than it has to be....

shturt678s · Sep 8, 2014

Angelquill said:
I find that it helps to look at these verses in their context, rather than to pick out a particular verse that seems to agree with our preconceived notions and put our own "spin" on it.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now, we see that "death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Now, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but even I can figure out that, if hell is the lake of fire, it can't very well be tossed into the lake of fire. That just doesn't make any sense.
The word used for "hell" here is "sheol"...which literally means "the grave".
So, what is being said is that the grave, along with it's nasty companion, death itself, are being tossed into what would seem to be God's trash burn pile.
So, what happens to stuff that gets thrown in there? Well, it does tell us that "death is no more", so there's a hint. Besides, the verse clearly says that the lake of fire is "the second death".
Next, we are told that "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Now, again...I'm no scholar...just a simple bard...but even I can figure out that the fate of these people is going to be pretty much the same as everything else that goes into the burn pile.
Now, the first death is the death of the body. So, the "second death" must be the death of the spirit.
Nowhere in the Bible, at least not so far as I've found in some fifty two years of reading it, does it say that we have an immortal soul. In fact, we are very clearly told that eternal life is a gift, which would indicate that it is something we don't already have.
These are a couple of the reasons why I am rethinking my belief in "eternal torture".
And, yes...I do have a problem with the idea that a God Who says that He is love, could stand to torture people forever. He is already very sad at the very idea that any should perish...let's not make it any harder on Him than it has to be....

A head's up regarding a no 'spin zone,' Rev.20:13, etc. one is either sitting on the left or the right before the final and public judgment...secretly upon each one's passing.

Old Jack's spin on it,

btw not only one is in torments forever and ever, but there are even different levels of suffereing in hell.

Glad MC hasn't went on one his long snoozes again, and leaving me 'left behind.'

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2014

shturt678s said:
A head's up regarding a no 'spin zone,' Rev.20:13, etc. one is either sitting on the left or the right before the final and public judgment...secretly upon each one's passing.

Old Jack's spin on it,

btw not only one is in torments forever and ever, but there are even different levels in hell.

Where is the source for that?
Perhaps we could create a new thread on that particular view?

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...64&q=different+levels+of+hell+christianforums
search "different levels of hell christianforums"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/
Different levels of torture in hell

supportisrael35 said:
I like to debate atheists and one thing that got me thinking is it seems logical that people who scoff and consciously reject God would worse eternal torture than someone who God never gave a chance to be saved (like a muslim who never heard of christ)

What do you think? I know it is not in hte bible but it seems like logic

Faith.Man said:
I do believe you are correct, that their are levels of punishment in Hell, just as their are levels of rewards in Heaven. I think there are scriptures to support this position, but I would take me awhile to find them. But just looking at this logically, it makes sense that to those that much is given, much is expected; with the converse also being true.

SolaVeritas said:
Here's my theory, which may or may not be true. Since the Bible calls our God a consuming fire and likens his wrath to fire, I've always assumed that the fire of hell is indeed the wrath of God burning against that person. Unquenching because they have rejected God's provision, the sacrifice of His son. More sins = more wrath = more fire, hence different levels.

But then again.....

Did not Jesus carry the sin of all humanity, past present future? Yes? Can we say, Jesus paid for this man's sin, but if he does not believe, it will still be on his back? How if it is forgiven? Would this not be like saying what Jesus did was not all sufficient? And if I believe this, then there is only one conclusion: People go to hell for rejecting Jesus, which is like trampling Him underfoot. Could this be the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (since the Holy Spirit testifies for Jesus), the ONLY sin that can not be forgiven?

If this is the way it is, then those that go to hell, all go there for the same thing, (because Jesus paid for all their other sins), and then levels wouldn't really make any sense. Unless the torment of their memories makes a different to each.

.

shturt678s · Sep 8, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Where is the source for that?
Perhaps we could create a new thread on that particular view?

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...64&q=different+levels+of+hell+christianforums
search "different levels of hell christianforums"

http://www.christianforums.com/t7427963/
Different levels of torture in hell

Thank you again my brother. Source is from my summarized Lutheran notes from Chemnitz (1560 or so) to Lutheran works (older Lutheran Commentaries to Sermons...some in German) up to Mathias Loy (1890 or so), however enter the deeper levels in light of Lk.12:45, etc. for a takeoff by perverting the Word even unknowingly, leading others to perdition especially the younger ones through the mentally challenged ...not so much dealing with mass temporal murderers, and etc.

It's simply where, including myself, combine difficult to detect errors with truths especially in the essentials of the faith and repentance. All the horrors of temporal crimes pretty much are the 'effect' thus not as serious as in the 'cause,' ie, in the spiritual sphere.

Only thinking out lourd enjoying myself too much...shut up Jack with your out to lunch opinions. Old Jack that almost didn't catch myself yakking away...one more small thing: another small litmus test is IITim.3:16, "correctable and refutable." Decades ago met many a minister that would boast where they were in error and corrected, and/or refuted. If I even bumped into "1" today, have to grab my heart meds. fast, could have the big one.

Angelquill · Sep 8, 2014

MoreCoffee said:
It isn't sheol you know, it's hades. Sheol is a Hebrew word and Revelation is written in Greek. Hades is a Greek word and that is why it is used in Revelation 20:14. Hades means "obscure, dark, invisible. Hades, the region of departed spirits of the lost (Luke 16:23)" [The Complete Word Study Dictionary] which is not quite the same thing as "the grave". I hope you do not mind me asking but have you been studying with Jehovah's Witnesses?

My bad. However, Hades is just the greek word for grave, since they believed that everyone went to an underworld. Hopefully, you don't think we'll encounter Cerebus anywhere, do you? He sounds kinda scary to me. And has the ferry ride gone up? How much should I take with me when I go?

No, I don't mind you asking, and no, I have not been studying with the JWs. I am also not an SDA, although I do rest on Saturday. I'm actually a Methodist.
The only one I've been studying with is God...

MoreCoffee · Sep 8, 2014

Angelquill said:
My bad. However, Hades is just the greek word for grave, since they believed that everyone went to an underworld. Hopefully, you don't think we'll encounter Cerebus anywhere, do you? He sounds kinda scary to me. And has the ferry ride gone up? How much should I take with me when I go?

No, I don't mind you asking, and no, I have not been studying with the JWs. I am also not an SDA, although I do rest on Saturday. I'm actually a Methodist.
The only one I've been studying with is God...

The definition for Hades in my past post to you didn't say "the grave". What dictionary are you using?

The one I used is

The Complete Word Study Dictionary

© 1992 By AMG International, Inc.
Chattanooga, TN 37422, U.S.A.
Revised edition, 1993

The full definition follows:

αδης

hádēs; gen. hádou, masc. noun from the priv. a (G1), not, and ideín, the inf. of the 2d aor. eídō (G1492), to see. In Homer and Hesiod the word is spelled Haïdḗs meaning obscure, dark, invisible. Hades, the region of departed spirits of the lost (Luk 16:23).

It corresponds to Sheol in the OT which occurs 59 times. In the NT, Hádēs occurs only 10 times. It is found nowhere in John's gospel, the epistles of Paul, the Epistle to the Hebrews, or the General Epistles. Three of the occurrences are on Christ's lips (Mat 11:23 [with Luk 10:15]; Luk 16:18; Luk 16:23). In two of these, the words are obviously used in a figurative sense: in the case of Capernaum to express an absolute overthrow, a humiliation as deep as the former loftiness and pride had been great; in the case of the Church, to express a security which shall be proof against death and destruction. The third occurrence, in the story of the rich man and Lazarus (Luk 16:19-31), is of a different kind and has even been taken to put our Lord's confirmation on the Jewish idea of two compartments in Hades, distinct from and yet near one another. In Act 2:27, Act 2:31, the word Hádēs occurs in a quotation from Psa 16:10 in an application of OT faith in the advent of Christ, His death, and His resurrection. Therefore, it has again the meaning of the world of the departed into which Christ passed like other men, but only to transform its nature from a place accommodating both believers and unbelievers to one for unbelievers only (Mat 11:23; Mat 16:18; Luk 10:15; 1Co 15:55; Rev 1:18; Rev 6:8; Rev 20:13-14).

In all the NT passages except Mat 11:23; Luk 10:15, Hades is associated with death. It expresses the general concept of the invisible world or abode into which the spirits of men are ushered immediately after death. The prevalent idea connected with it in its association with death are those of privation, detention, and just recompense. The thought of the relative reward of good is subordinate, if expressed at all, to the retribution of evil and to the penal character pertaining to Hades as the minister of death. In none of the passages in which the word itself occurs have we any disclosures or even hints of purgatorial fires, purifying processes, or extended operations of grace.

The state of human beings in Hades is immediate and irreversible after death, although it does not constitute the eternal state, for Hades itself later becomes the exclusive place for unbelievers. It is cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14), while the reign of the just becomes paradise (Luk 23:43; 2Co 12:4; Rev 2:7) which is ultimately absorbed into the final heaven (Rev 21:1). Our Lord conclusively teaches in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that there is no possibility of repentance after death. It is in this light that 1Pe 3:18-20 should be viewed (cf. phulakḗ [G5438], prison).

Unfortunately, both the OT and NT words have been translated in the KJV as "hell" (Psa 16:10) or the "grave" (Gen 37:35) or the "pit" (Num 16:30, Num 16:33). Hades never denotes the physical grave nor is it the permanent region of the lost. It is the intermediate state between death and the ultimate hell, Gehenna (Géenna [G1067]). Christ declares that He has the keys of Hades (Rev 1:18). In Rev 6:8 it is personified with the meaning of the temporary destiny of the doomed; it is to give up those who are in it (Rev 20:13), and is to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:14).

Syn.: Géenna (G1067), the final destiny of the wicked, hell; tartaróō (G5020), the prison of the fallen angels or evil spirits; ábussos (G12), abyss, the place where the dragon (drákōn [G1404]), i.e., Satan, is bound during the millennial reign (cf. Luk 8:31; Rev 9:11); límnē (G3041) and toú purós (G4442), lake of fire, the place into which the beast and the false prophet are cast after their defeat by Christ. An additional statement in Rev 21:8 describes those who have their part in the lake of fire, compare the description of those who are outside the city (Rev 22:15).

Ant.: parádeisos (G3857), paradise; kólpos Abraám (kólpos [G2859], bosom; Abraám [G11], Abraham), Abraham's bosom; ouranós (G3772), heaven.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2014

Angelquill said:
My bad. However, Hades is just the greek word for grave, since they believed that everyone went to an underworld. ...

That is what I would think.

Notice the similarity in this verse of Hosea 13 in the Hebrew OT, to Revelation chapts 1 and 5 in the Christian NT....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588850-7/#post58437455
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament

Hosea 13:14
"From hand of sh@'owl I shall rescue/ransom/06299 padah/#4506 them.
From death I shall redeem/1350 ga'al/#3084 them

Reve 1:18
and the living One! And I became dead, and behold! I am living into the Ages of the Ages;
And I am having the keys of the hades and of the death

Reve 5:9
And they are singing a song new saying "worthy are Thou to be receiving the scroll and to open up the seals of it.
That Thou wast slain/slaughtered and did purchase/hgorasaV <59> to the God of us in the blood of Thee
out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation".

http://www.christianforums.com/t7829376-46/#post65877336
Hell

CherubRam said:
The Hebrew word Sheol literally means grave, not Hell. Is there LIFE in Hell? God says that man will surely die, and the Serpent says that man will not surely die.

The Pagans teach that there is life in Hell. God says there is death. And Yahshua also said that God can destroy both body and spirit.

If the word Hell is biblical, then the Serpent told the truth and God lied. Get my point?

Hades is the Greek god of the underworld.

Hades ( /ˈheɪdiːz/; from Greek ᾍδης (older form Ἀϝίδη&#962, Hadēs, originally Ἅιδης, Haidēs or Άΐδης, Aidēs (Doric Ἀΐδας Aidas), meaning "the unseen") was the ancient Greek god of the underworld. The genitive ᾍδου, Haidou, was an elision to denote locality: "[the house/dominion] of Hades". Eventually, the nominative came to designate the abode of the dead.

In Greek mythology, Hades is the oldest male child of Cronus and Rhea. According to myth, he and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated the Titans and claimed rulership over the cosmos, ruling the underworld, air, and sea, respectively; the solid earth, long the province of Gaia, was available to all three concurrently.

Hades was also called "Plouton" (Greek: Πλούτων, gen.: Πλούτωνος, meaning "Rich One"), a name which the Romans Latinized as Pluto. The Romans would associate Hades/Pluto with their own chthonic gods, Dis Pater and Orcus. The corresponding Etruscan god was Aita. Symbols associated with him are the Helm of Darkness, the bident and the three-headed dog, Cerberus.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

.

By Faith Alone · Sep 8, 2014

Jonathan95 said:
Also, many preachers use Hebrews 9:27 before preaching the gospel, are they all wrong?

Well. Apparently so:
2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall... judge the quick and the dead.... at his appearing and his kingdom;

Those are the ones that are alive at His coming and those that have ever died. No resurrection mentioned nor death for all.

The Bible is my seminary. My FINAL answer. What about you?

Angelquill · Sep 8, 2014

Anyone who has ever read any greek mythology knows that Hades is the "abode of the dead", overseen by the greek god by the same name. It is guarded by a three headed dog named Cerberus, and, to get there, one must ride the ferry across the river Styx. You must pay the ferryman for this service.
Evidently, however, there are ways for the living to get into Hades. Hercules did it.

What may not be so well known is that tartaros, or tartaroo, as some spell it, is actually the prison that Zeus and his brothers locked the Titans into after forcing their father, Kronos, to disgorge them. It's a pretty gory tale.
But it does seem to be where a lot of the notions about "hell" come from.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2014

Angelquill said:
My bad. However, Hades is just the greek word for grave, since they believed that everyone went to an underworld. Hopefully, you don't think we'll encounter Cerebus anywhere, do you? He sounds kinda scary to me. And has the ferry ride gone up? How much should I take with me when I go?............

Anyone who has ever read any greek mythology knows that Hades is the "abode of the dead", overseen by the greek god by the same name. It is guarded by a three headed dog named Cerberus, and, to get there, one must ride the ferry across the river Styx. You must pay the ferryman for this service..............

...

While translating this covenantle "hell" parable in Luke 16, I came across an interesting greek word...#1276. It literally means to "ferry/cross over on ship".

The only place I found that translated it s "ferrying" was an ISA interlinear I use.

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Luke 16:26 And upon all of these between us and ye a great chasm hath been established
so that those willing to cross-over/diabhnai <1224> (5629) hence toward ye no may be able,
neither thence toward us may be ferrying/diaperwsin <1276> (5725)

1276. diaperao dee-ap-er-ah'-o from 1223 and a derivative of the base of 4008; to cross entirely:--go over, pass (over), sail over.

Google Answers: Mythology in the movie Troy

The reason coins were placed on the eyes of the dead were for payment to the ferryman.
The Greeks buried their dead with coins over their eyes or under their tongues so that they could pay Charon, the ferryman, to carry them over the river Styx into the Underworld.

Chris de Burgh - Don't Pay The Ferryman - YouTube

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seeingeyes · Sep 8, 2014

What is missing after 35 pages is anyone providing any statement from any church or council of christians mandating one particular view of hell as core doctrine and the others as heretical.

"Heresy" is not a matter of opinion.

MoreCoffee · Sep 8, 2014

A thought ...

Robert H. Brom said:
The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovahs Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormonsall have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hellthe wicked will simply be annihilated.
...

For the rest click this link

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2014

seeingeyes said:
What is missing after 35 pages is anyone providing any statement from any church or council of christians mandating one particular view of hell as core doctrine and the others as heretical.

"Heresy" is not a matter of opinion.

Good question.
I haven't heard much from the EOC concerning their view on this?

Also, what ancient councils is this site referring to?

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-hell-there-is

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

.

.

James Is Back · Sep 8, 2014

Mama Kidogo said:
Fair? Isn't that an event where they have beauty contests for hogs?

I thought it was to judge apple pies

By Faith Alone · Sep 8, 2014

Reborn Yet Again said:
I thought it was to judge apple pies

I've seen hogs at a pie eating contest. Seems the apples were delicious.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2014

By Faith Alone said:
Well. Apparently so:
2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall... judge the quick and the dead.... at his appearing and his kingdom;

Those are the ones that are alive at His coming and those that have ever died. No resurrection mentioned nor death for all.

The Bible is my seminary. My FINAL answer. What about you?

May that be soon!

2 Timothy 4:1
Thru-witnessing then I, before the God and the Lord Jesus Christ, of the being-about to be judging living and dead
at the appearance/manifestation of Him and the Kingdom of Him [Reve 11:18]

Reve 11:18
And the nations are angered, and came thy wrath, and the time of the dead to be judged,
and to give the wages to Thy bond-servants, the prophets, and to the Saints, and to those fearing Thy name, the small, and the great.
And to blight the ones blighting the land

.

shturt678s · Sep 8, 2014

Only a head's up, for example Matt.10:15, "hades" Simply the opposite of heaven and must contextually mean hell, ie, place of the damned...here cannot be a translation for sheol.

Old Jack's opinion, ie, bottom of the pecking order.

btw MC taking so many notes from you, had to p/u another note pad...good job!

BTW Bible translations are the worse Seminaries due to their extreme interpretive nature saying anything you want it to say, ie, solution interpret the Scriptures going forward from the ancient languages to the English contextually....not backwards as pervasively done today.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 8, 2014

shturt678s said:
Only a head's up, for example Matt.10:15, "hades" Simply the opposite of heaven and must contextually mean hell, ie, place of the damned...here cannot be a translation for sheol.

Old Jack's opinion, ie, bottom of the pecking order..

Not sure what that verse has to do with the topic of eternal hell.....

Old LLoJ, just trying to figure all this out....one notch above Old Jack ehehe

.

shturt678s · Sep 8, 2014

LittleLambofJesus said:
Not sure what that verse has to do with the topic of eternal hell.....

Old LLoJ, just trying to figure all this out....one notch above Old Jack ehehe

.

I was thinking that we had different views of "hades" where some didn't think "hades = "hell"?

I was poorly bringing forth that "hades" = "hell," and after this core base is set down we can built a coherent framework around this regarding the eternity and tormenting part of the OP.....however still off topic thus messed up with my good intentions again. Will get back to the topic my brother.

Old Jack losing it...opinion only so don't pay that much attention.

James Is Back · Sep 8, 2014

Wasn't Hades the Greek god of the afterlife?

Is not believing in an eternal hell Heresy?

Repentance works.

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